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[dagobert]

I know it is off topic to this thread, but I really hope that you don't leave the forums, davewasbaloo. It is always very interesting to read your posts, because of the comparisions you make with the other resorts.

I do understand your critics, but for me DLRP is still a very good resort and we also had a lot of fun at WDW, although the MK is really a bad park. Nevertheless the other three parks are great. We started going to Disney in 2006 and have been to DLRP every year since then, so I don't know how it was 10 or 15 years ago. In my opinion the quality of DLRP even improved during the last 3 years. In 2006 DLP was not in a very good condition compared to our last visit in 2008.

What I don't like about Disney at the moment that everything new is based on Pixar, toons or princesses and that Disney is just focusing on children, especially little ones.

I really hope that Disney will reach the standard again that the parks had 15 years ago, like you discribed.

[RnRCj]

I must admit, when I first joined these forums I found it hard to understand what davewasbaloo was talking about. My first visit was in 2001. What made me realise about the problems at Disney was my favourite attraction - Rock 'n' Roller Coaster. The way it was once so good, then over the years dramatically dropped in quality. It suddenly made me realise what Dave was talking about; about how this drop in quality has not only happend to RnRC, but to the whole resort.

And just to keep this post on topic... what's this about Earls of Sandwich? Is it really going to be built? In a NEW building?

[never2old]

Me too I'm completely off topic but please don't leave davewasbaloo. Most of us tend to only see the good in all things Disney, is really important to have someone who can see that all's not well and remind us. I don't like people who criticise Disney but haven't been to the parks or don't watch the movies, some people really love to talk about what they know nothing about. You on the other hand are a real fan and you really know what you're talking about, and we need you here.


And now back on topic, last weekend we saw they were building a little Circus stage in the DV (in front of Annette's), anyone know what that is?

[davewasbaloo]

Awe, thanks guys, I am glad I talked it out rather than just disappearing. I want to love Disney (and believe me, I do - it has been a life long obsession). Disney made me who I am, and do the things I do in life. It has impacted on the decor of my home. Disney used to really stretch and be about inspiring and learning. Some of that is still just about there (Epcot and DAK especially), but not as much.

I really want a balance, somewhere that is fun for the kids, but the adults too. That's what Walt Disney wanted, and to me, he was one of my greatest inspriations. And I am not naive, I have run multi million € businesses internationally, there are steps they can (and do take). And I am keen we applaud them when we do.

No doubt, in many ways DLP is better than 5 years ago (maintenance, cast and cleaning) and in other ways not (entertainment, staggered hours and merchandise). I doubt we will ever see the level we once enjoyed there, but I think it is really important for the longevity of Disney that they do not think short term. And no doubt, new guests will still be wowed. But it is the long term fan base that made Disney such a success, and enabled them to come to Europe.

Back on topic, the circus in the village has been a summer addition for many years, it is clown acts during the weekends.

[experiment627]

But it is the long term fan base that made Disney such a success, and enabled them to come to Europe.

Now that is an interesting statement. True, Disney has always leaned a lot on repeat visitors. But are repeat visitors automatically "long term fans"? Mhm... And: are we talking about Disney park-fans  or Disney-fans in general?
Anyway - it *is* great you are staying. I doubt I would dare posing this question if it hadn't been you who made the statement. Your views are always very welcomed and make for wonderful discussions.

Ah, but yes... back on topic: so, when is that Earl of Sandwich opening again?  :wink:

[ed-uk]

I hear what Dave is saying. But I think EuroDisney do a good job, I don't know how they do it. All those hotels to maintain, two theme parks and they hardly make any money out of it. How to you maintain standards when your not making any money in a recession? I've asked this question many times and people just talk about the past and the so called golden years, when the resort nearly went bankrupt. I want to see EuroDisney on a sound financial footing so it can grow. I also want a balance in the theme parks for adults and children, too. But when the studios first opened there wasn't much balance for  children. So Disney try to correct this with Toy Story Playland and people criticise it for being to toon like. I can not understand why people would think there're too many toons in the parks. The characters really make it for many people. But I get the impression that they muck up the themeing for others. People can take the characters or leave them, can't they. I'm sure kids today want to see their favourite characters like Buzz lightyear. Walt Disney left a great legacy. And had it not been for the success of his cartoon films, Disneyland would never have happend. People also talk about slippage, but more people in the world have the chance to go to a Disney theme park than ever before, which I think is something to cheer about. I never had the chance to go to Disneyland in America when I was growing up. But it's not perfect. Favourite shows come and go, but isn't that inevitable. I think it can fair to criticise. But sometimes It comes across as critisism for critisisms sake, to me.

[davewasbaloo]

I hear what Dave is saying. But I think EuroDisney do a good job, I don't know how they do it. All those hotels to maintain, two theme parks and they hardly make any money out of it. How to you maintain standards when your not making any money in a recession?

I can not understand why people would think there're too many toons in the parks. The characters really make it for many people. I'm sure kids today want to see their favourite characters like Buzz lightyear. Walt Disney left a great legacy. And had it not been for the success of his cartoon films, Disneyland would never have happend. People also talk about slippage, but more people in the world have the chance to go to a Disney theme park than ever before, which I think is something to celebrate. But it's not perfect. Favourite shows come and go, but isn't that inevitable.

Well, the money spent on these cheesy marketing celebrations, the rework of Backlot Express and TSPL could be better spent on maintenance, streetmousphere and saving for better capital investment projects later. That is my main beef.

As for the toons, DL did not even have meet and greets in their early years in the US, and other than the meets and greets, the toons only ever lived in Fantasyland. Tomorrowland, Adventureland and Frontierland had learning experiences and were about immersing yourself in the theme. That is why DL is often called the 1st "Theme Park", not a toon park.

Many of us have gone to the parks for generations because of the themes. The toon mania seems to be a relatively new phenomena.

Look at the best attractions and most popular in the Disney universe. How many are toon themed? How many are not? I think that says it all really.

[kmara]

davewasbaloo and quark:
I have been following your conversation very interested, because I know what you are talking about when you mention the early spell of DLP. It was extraordinairy wonderful and that was exactly what got me hooked.
What I found equally interesting are your comparisons between all the Disneyparks, since I haven't been able to see any of them except WDW, but that was with a huge group of exchange students and visiting a Disneypark like that when you are such a huge addict like I am was horrible!  :?

and since I won't be able to see any other parks in the nearer and farer future, I love reading your coments because it gives me an opportunity to share into it a little bit. Thanks!

Thank you kmara. I have been wondering about leaving the Disney web communities lately because I think that would make people happier and be less of a drain on my time. But when I read things like this, it makes me rethink.

My negative posts are not for the fun of it. They are intended to get people to stop and think, and voice their opinion with guest relations if they have a concern. And also, when the Disney folks read the boards (which I know they do), I hope they stop and think (for example with the new refurbs).

And I will compliament Disney if they get it right (for example I was the first to share the refurb pics of the Labrynth, as well as maxing my delights about last halloween's celebrations).

oh no, dave don't leave!!! that would be such a loss.... we need criticism and when it is combined with good ideas - like what you do - then it absolutely indispensable!

it really makes my heart ache when I think about the first years of dlp, but then again I remember how worried I was when they nearly went bankrupt!
I am glad to read that things are turning around and I hope they also will in merchandising (for me it has never been as easy to save money on souvernirs as it was during the last couple years; I just didn't want the things they are trying to sell badly enough...), streetmousphere and maintenance (which has already started as you report).

I find it always very intersting to read your topics and posts and reports, especially because they are not only glorifying!

[ed-uk]

[quote="davewasbalooWell, the money spent on these cheesy marketing celebrations, the rework of Backlot Express and TSPL could be better spent on maintenance, streetmousphere and saving for better capital investment projects later. That is my main beef.

As for the toons, DL did not even have meet and greets in their early years in the US, and other than the meets and greets, the toons only ever lived in Fantasyland. Tomorrowland, Adventureland and Frontierland had learning experiences and were about immersing yourself in the theme. That is why DL is often called the 1st "Theme Park", not a toon park.

Many of us have gone to the parks for generations because of the themes. The toon mania seems to be a relatively new phenomena.

Look at the best attractions and most popular in the Disney universe. How many are toon themed? How many are not? I think that says it all really.[/quote]

Sorry, you've lost me. Peter Pans Flight, that's toon themed and very popular. I could say Snow White, there are others. Even if DL didn't have meet and greets in the early years, it's no reason not to have them now. Stitch is popular but we couldn't have him, well we could but he'd be limited to Fantasyland. How many people go to Disneyland and are disappointed to see toons in Discoveryland or Adventureland? The toons really make it for some people but for others they just muck up the themeing. Can't people take them or leave them. Disney have spent a fortune on TOT and new themeing at the WDS, none of it toon based. The company use there characters to refresh their parks. Disneyland isn't new anymore and they have to introduce it to a modern audience, not just hold on to the old one. They still have to market their theme parks. OK you think MMP is cheesy. People have got used to the marketing for the 15th, now Disney have changed things, when people liked it just fine the way things were. We're going to have to agree to differ. Disneyland is a theme park. Not a history park.

[RnRCj]

Peter Pans Flight, that's toon themed and very popular. I could say Snow White, there are others.

But they're relatively minor attractions. We're talking about the major ones. Things like Haunted Mansion, Pirates, Big Thunder - the ones which are most significant in Disney history. Very few of them are toon-based.

Disney have spent a fortune on TOT and new themeing at the WDS, none of it toon based.

Cars, Crush's Coaster, Stitch Live, Toy Story Playland, Ratatouille?

Disneyland isn't new anymore and they have to introduce it to a modern audience, not just hold on to the old one. They still have to market their theme parks.

That's still no excuse to throw toons in everything. There is still a wide variety of themes that aren't toon-based and would still interest newer audiences.

[ed-uk]

Peter Pans Flight is very popular though. Ok Haunted Mansion, Pirates (which both later became films if not toon films) Space Mountain, TOT and BTM may not be based on Toons. But if we're talking about Disney History you can't deny the importance of the cartoon films. I myself don't have a problem with Crushes coater or Stitch live being  based on  cartoon Characters. They have turned out to be popular attractions haven't they, so Disney didn't get it wrong. There may be a variety of other themes that Disney could use in their parks. They built DCA on that very theory, they didn't have any toons there when it opened. Any one would think we were falling over toons to get through the door. I agree there must be a balance for adults and children. But I don't think Disney is wrong to cash in on the success of their films. When they invest millions in their parks they have to judge what will be most popular. It's their call. And with 11 theme parks in the world they must be doing something right. Some people think DL is the best. They certainly have toons there.

[davewasbaloo]

So many issues here, so little time.

RNRCJr is right. I was referring to the fact that Main Street, Frontierland, Phantom Manor, Big Thunder, the Mark Twain, the Train, Pirates of the Caribbean, Space Mountain, Moteurs Action, Rock N Roller Coaster, Cinemagique (in the main), Tower of Terror are not toon related.

In WDW add in mainstays such as Country BEars, Hall of Presidents, Carousel of Progress, Spaceship Earth, Test Track, Soarin' Great Movie Ride, Kilemenjaro Safari, Expedition Everest.

All of these are the most popular attractions and the ones people travel for 1000's of miles and spend a fortune to experience. Not so much for the toons (other when the kids are little or the handfully of furry followers out there).

As for DCA, the problem was not the theme or lack of characters, it was the lack of immersive theming and a cheap budget that hurt the place. Epcot is hugely popular, and the characters have only been creeping in for the last 10 years or so.

And while Peter Pan is very popular, it has a very low hourly capacity, so it has far less guests each day than Phantom manor which is a people eating omnimover.

[Pete's Dragon]

Epcot is hugely popular, and the characters have only been creeping in for the last 10 years or so.

Have only been to Epcot once (well, twice : Monday + Friday) in 1988, over 20 years ago, and the toons were everywhere. There was something similar to the Character Express except it was a open-topped double decker bus. It appeared so frequently it was as if constantly drove around the lake only stopping at each country. Must have seen it about 5 times before we got all the way round . :?

[davewasbaloo]

Epcot is hugely popular, and the characters have only been creeping in for the last 10 years or so.

Have only been to Epcot once (well, twice : Monday + Friday) in 1988, over 20 years ago, and the toons were everywhere. There was something similar to the Character Express except it was a open-topped double decker bus. It appeared so frequently it was as if constantly drove around the lake only stopping at each country. Must have seen it about 5 times before we got all the way round . :?

Well the park is twice the size of DLP, so one bus of characters is hardly everywhere. Compared to now where Nemo has over taken the living seas, the Lion King crew are in a film in the Land and so on.

[davewasbaloo]

I have never had a problem with meet and greets as long as they do not interfere with the theming and entertainment. When it becomes all about the characters, that is when I think they have totally lost it.