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[DopeyDad]

mmm, just to be inflammatory as is my want. Does this whole discussion boil down to;

I love DLP more than most = my views and feelings about DLP are different to many = I am a minority of DLP visitors = marketing and/or business decision are not aimed at me!

differences are wonderful things but I'd be surprised (and worried) if their business strategy was aimed at fans.
Fans are the people who like it for what it is, if it changes they may lose fans but they're going to make decisions (many bad) on a different basis.

Of course many people here will feel that they could have made better decisions and without DLP input it's difficult to know what all the factors were. Would Walt really be making the same business decisions now? Maybe, but the world has changed enormously since then so maybe not. Please don't get me wrong, I love DLP dearly and that is only based on 4 years of visits, but we loved it from day 1 and that was shared with our children so for us at least the childrens' experience of the place does come first.
But for now I think that with Ratatouille, rumours starting about the hub disappearing, Star Tours 2 still possible, a rumoured face lift to OUAPAD and whatever Davewasbaloo has previously hinted at about WDI and Fantasyland is, then the future could be very good.
If more entertainment, in restaurants, throughout lands and quality shows in the theaters came back then it could be excellent if they can extent stays and guest spend enough to service and reduce their debt and start making money for themselves rather than their creditors for a change.


(PS, parachute drop height restriction is so low a 2 year old can ride it, not to undermine your point Forza just didn't want people to think their children might not get on it)

[DLP-Photos.com]

But for now I think that with Ratatouille, rumours starting about the hub disappearing, Star Tours 2 still possible, a rumoured face lift to OUAPAD and whatever Davewasbaloo has previously hinted at about WDI and Fantasyland is, then the future could be very good.
If more entertainment, in restaurants, throughout lands and quality shows in the theaters came back then it could be excellent if they can extent stays and guest spend enough to service and reduce their debt and start making money for themselves rather than their creditors for a change.

Agreed - if all rumours are true and if we get a quality 20th celebration with focus on entertainment of the "good old standard" (e.g. no hub shows, all stages used for broadway class shows, land specific entertainment) and then a second celebrationary year with a state-of-the-art E-Ticket attraction they could be on their way to turn things around. This however cannot be succeeded without the courage and creativity of former times. With the current refurbishments they are showing respect to these times and that is reassuring.

I love DLP more than most = my views and feelings about DLP are different to many = I am a minority of DLP visitors = marketing and/or business decision are not aimed at me!

I think this is a bit too simplified I'm trying to see it from different angles, what has worked in the past, what has given the biggest boosts in attendance and such things. No one know if the strategy I suggest would work in today's world, it is just the way I would have tried to do it if I were in their shoes. However, I am sure that Walt would have sticked with his principles regarding Disneyland had he lived today. Whether it would have worked, it looks like we will never get an answer to

[DopeyDad]

Hi Forza, just realised i should have added a few smileys too,   I think my text tone can come off a bit severe sometimes :lol:

not aimed at any individuals either, just chewing the cud

[DutchBrit]

as I have stated several times I only go because of the special connection I got in the 90's when the park was completely different.

And yet your last trip report seemd to indicate that you had a pretty good time, even with things so very different from when you were a child. And how old were you in the 90s when things were so much better? Doesn't everyone remember things from their childhood with rose-coloured spectacles? When I visited in 96, I was 29 so didn't have spectacles of any colour on. And I can't say I saw any dramatic changes for the worse when I went back last November, just extra rides that I'd seen (and enjoyed) in Florida a few years earlier.

I even know a girl who is even more obsessed with Disney than me and the same age as me. She doesn't want to go, because she is afraid of being disappointed by it being to much for kids - that is a potential customer who would spent loads of money at the resort. I am afraid she is not the only one

I'm not. I rather doubt that there are that many adults who take Disney that seriously. And even if these very few people could get over their hang-ups, go and spend half their salarly, it won't equal what Disney makes out attracting families with children, grandparents along for the ride and all that goes with it. Fact.

It took much courage to build such an expensive ride in a park that was crying out for something for the younger audiences. Yet people flocked to WDS to experience this - no toons, no kids, but lots of atmosphere, themening and unique story-telling.

Umm, not really. It was expensive, no doubt, but already tried, tested and successful elsewhere. And of course, meant to appeal to teenagers and older, to add to the "younger" appeal of the earlier Disney park...

I can clearly feel that we both want the best for DLP - we just see two very different ways of securing this  

To be fair, I think you have a much stronger emotional attachment than I do!

[DLP-Photos.com]

as I have stated several times I only go because of the special connection I got in the 90's when the park was completely different.

And yet your last trip report seemd to indicate that you had a pretty good time, even with things so very different from when you were a child. And how old were you in the 90s when things were so much better? Doesn't everyone remember things from their childhood with rose-coloured spectacles? When I visited in 96, I was 29 so didn't have spectacles of any colour on. And I can't say I saw any dramatic changes for the worse when I went back last November, just extra rides that I'd seen (and enjoyed) in Florida a few years earlier.

I even know a girl who is even more obsessed with Disney than me and the same age as me. She doesn't want to go, because she is afraid of being disappointed by it being to much for kids - that is a potential customer who would spent loads of money at the resort. I am afraid she is not the only one

I'm not. I rather doubt that there are that many adults who take Disney that seriously. And even if these very few people could get over their hang-ups, go and spend half their salarly, it won't equal what Disney makes out attracting families with children, grandparents along for the ride and all that goes with it. Fact.

It took much courage to build such an expensive ride in a park that was crying out for something for the younger audiences. Yet people flocked to WDS to experience this - no toons, no kids, but lots of atmosphere, themening and unique story-telling.

Umm, not really. It was expensive, no doubt, but already tried, tested and successful elsewhere. And of course, meant to appeal to teenagers and older, to add to the "younger" appeal of the earlier Disney park...

I can clearly feel that we both want the best for DLP - we just see two very different ways of securing this  

To be fair, I think you have a much stronger emotional attachment than I do!

Of course I had a good time, I love it. I didn't mean that I don't enjoy it anymore - if I didn't do that I could just look at pictures from back then. I meant that I only go now because I was made aware of Disneyland back then I was a child back then, but what I remember is completely different to what I see the children experiencing today.

Of course I chose an extreme example with this girl. But I think you still know what I mean. It is as if you want me to say they shouldn't aim at kids at all - that's not what I am saying. I do not hink we will agree on this point.

Umm, not really. It was expensive, no doubt, but already tried, tested and successful elsewhere.

Yes, in the US and Japan but not in Europe. If people here are so different from people these places, as you say, it was still a brave decision with the financial status of the park in mind.

I am sure that I am more emotional attached too, but I still think and hope that you want DLP the best with your suggestions and that was all I wanted to say with that statement I actually think that we agree more than we think - we just disagree on one huge point: the level of ambition.

[kate&phoo]

Wow I'm loving this thread and everyone's opinions  :thumbs:

I love Disney and all things Disney. I was watching the making of doco about Mary Poppins, of which Walt Disney obviously featured heavily and it made me realise what a genius he really was. I really have no desire to enter into the "toons" debate but I just wanted to say who'd know what Walt would be upto at this moment in time if he was alive. He was highly ambitious and continually pushing boundaries with animatronics and animation, I really believe he was well ahead of his time.

The other thing I wanted to say is that I really love DLP. I went as a child in 1992, I loved it, my parents were disappointed then (so lets not pretend it's a recent thing eh?) and did not return until 2008 and then 2009. I love this forum, some forum members know so much I just can't comprehend how you know so much information! I am known as a bit of  Disney Expert amongst my friends but compared to you lot I know b*gger all  :lol:  This forum makes me happy because I love hearing all the things that make Disney what it is, I love seeing how DLP has evolved in the 20 years since it was opened, I love hearing how it differs from it's American counterparts, I love hearing about the renovations - I'm basicallay Disney bore! But one thing that amazes me is the negativity that I read in some threads and posts - some people, who blatantly return to Disney year on year seem to hate it as they constantly pull it apart. I know you don't by the way, it's just how it comes across sometimes.

The American market is different to the European market - you don't need to be a Disney Expert to realise that! So as someone else said, would there really be the same need for wedding chapels, etc in DLP? I don't think so either. For the record, my boyfriend won't go anywhere near DLP but we are going to WDW in a couple of years, my good friend also got married in WDW despite being a complete non-Disney fan - she wanted a Florida wedding and liked the package. And that's why you can't really compare what WDW offers and what DLP offers, if someone goes to Florida you would pretty much expect them to goto WDW but I know from personal experience that when any of my friends have holidayed in France or even Paris it wouldn't even occur to me to ask if they were going to drop in at Disneyland. I don't know why that is, I just think people maybe in the majority have different needs over?

[DLP-Photos.com]

Hi

Great you love the forum - it is a wonderful place, isnt it? :-)

I Really dó not hope that I come across as hating DLP in any way. That is not the case in any way - I love it very much.  

Of course the so-called Disney experts' opinion aren't any more right or wiser than others.. Interesting points you make about the lack of your friends wanting to visit - is it because of a deep lack of interest or missing public knowledge of the parks' offers... Only a big survey could answer this :-)

Regarding the wedding chapels, I am not sure those would fit in Europe either and I only Think they were brought up to point at some of the adult activities in other Disney parks in the World... Definetely you have to respect your geographical market - we have also seen this in DLP with the more "scary" and "dark" Halloween celebrations of previous times as a good example :-)

[davewasbaloo]

FWIW, I do not hate DLP, been going since before it opened to the public, own a timeshare on the golf course, have had APs for 10+ years and have been 57 times. As well as growing up at DL in California with 300 visits, and two week long trips to DL since DCA opened. I have been to WDW 4 times as well. But I am worried about a major negative trend in the company over the last 10 years and am passionate because I want it to improve.

Also, after being on disney boards and forums for the last 15 years, I am a little past "what's your fav ride/character" type topics.

[kate&phoo]

Hiya Davewasbaloo and forza_united    Believe me I absolutely know where you are coming from and I love that you're passionate about Disney. I don't think I will ever be as knowledgable about Disney and how everything works as you and some other forum members are but I have to admit, to a certain extent I kind of like that way  :roll: lol.

There a few areas where I do feel Disney have fallen down and to be completely honest during my last visit in August 2010 I was pretty disgusted by the state of things and opted not to go this year. I do however feel really positive about all the renovations work and I'm seeing this as a nice new positive step toward better things for DLP  

I just wanted to add that somebody mentioned the live bands that used to frequent the park and it was questioned about how much revenue they brought into the park; well during my first visit in 1992 my dad took a major shine to these bands and although I think overall I think my parents were a little disappointed with DLP, my dad did say the best thing about it was the band he had seen on MSUSA and he'd have loved to see more of that kind of thing. Well as a 28 year old mum I'm taking my little girl back in March along with my mum. I would take my dad but apart from perhaps Cinemagique I really don't see what DLP has to offer him...?

[kate&phoo]

Randomly whilst I was washing up today this question popped into my head and it's meant without any underlying meaning or intention, but to those of you actively opposing the increase in "toons" invading DLP, namely forza_united and davewasbaloo, do you like the Disney films? Or is your love affair solely with Disneyland and Disneyworld?  

[davewasbaloo]

My love came from the parks first and foremost and always. I started watching the animation to get a greater understanding and own all the main VHS and DVD releases. But I have to be honest, they are secondary by far. I have always preferred the Warner Bros. shorts of the 30's-50's than the Disney ones with a few exceptions, and for modern films, I would rather watch Kung Fu Panda or How to Train Your Dragon before Tangled or the Princess and the Frog.

I do love some animated features - Sleeping Beauty, Peter Pan, Beauty and the Beast, Lion King, Tarzan, Atlantis and Treasure Planet. But to me it is all about the theming and attention to detail, and I find the toons take A LOT away from that. In fact, if we could have all the bands and themed shows (like can can dancers in the Lucky Nugget as it used to be) with no characters, that would be preferrable to me.

As a kid, it was Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion, Jungle Cruise and Adventure Through Inner Space, Mission to Mars and the Submarine Voyage that captured my imagination. With the exception of It's A Small World, I found Fantasyland to be a bore, even when I was a child. It was the world of adventure, the old west, New Orleans, Tomorrow and the turn of the century that facinated me. Jules Verne and Mark Twain. A sense of place and time. Menus, shopping, entertainment and state of the art attractions that make me go wow.

In WDW I hate the MK because it is too toony, to me it is all about Epcot and Animal Kingdom there. And in Tokyo, I really want to go to Disney Sea.

I am ok watching the toons at home, or going to see Lion King (been 5 times), Beauty and the Beast (2 times) and Mary Poppins (once) on a stage in London, LA, New York. But I will not travel and spend a fortune on a glorified father christmas IPR experience. And I really scratch my head at those who do.

I think they have ruined Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show, LA Bar and Grill, the Lucky Nugget, the Auberge de Cindrillon (one of my former favs) and Cowboy Cookout BBA.

But it is obvious that the market they are targeting want this stuff.

However Kate, I suspect your father might like Tivoli Garden in Denmark. It is full of gorgeous gardens, live music and some rides, and it is what inspired Walt in the ethos of DL.

[DLP-Photos.com]

I Really do love the Disney movies - mainly the classics and the older ones like Pinocchio, Robin Hood, but also the great from the nineties like Lion King and Beauty and the Beast.. I went to see Beauty and the Beast as a very Young child and my parents keep telling me how I - in the cinema - loudly said "great ending" after the ballroom Dance scene and then I fell asleep.. Today I think memories like this have made me into the movie fan I am today..

I guess mé and my family's love for the Disney films made us go to Disneyland at the first time in 94, but then it was the atmosphere of the parks that has made us return many times again.

So I guess my love for Disney films and Disneyland are equally as big, but they are two very different things for me with no major connection now.

[Patrick89]

I love most of the Disney movies too, but I guess mostly because they remind me of Disneyland

While reading these pages, so many thoughts came to my mind, I guess I have already forgotten half of them again  
Steven mentioned that Disneyland would not attract too many teenagers/adults because of the lack of thrilling rides. In part this might be true, but for me theming and atmosphere is much more important than corkscrews and gigantic steel-constructions. And I think most uf us here would agree with me here (but unfortunately we are not the majority of the visitors   )
Here, I agree with the problem davewasbaloo mentioned, namely that children will grow up and lose interest in the attractions just based on thrill, or loveless attractions like in TSPL. Why should you go to DLRP again, if you can have rollercoasters in other parks, too?

Now the atmosphere becomes important. I think it is no coincidence that most uf us here name POTC, BTM, PM etc. as their favourite rides. We are (more or less   ) adults and still keep going to Disneyland and I think the memories of the past, as forza pointed out, play an important role here. In my opinion it is impossible for people visiting the Park for the first time now to experience the perfection that has once characterized Disneyland. I have been there with two friends of mine, for whom it was the first trip to DLRP, in fall 2009. They said it was pretty nice, but they could not understand my obsession. This was the first time I realized that much of the former atmosphere in the park had been gone already.
But maybe our prayers will be answered someday and we will experience a resurrection of the old virtues...

[davewasbaloo]

Agreed. We go to DLP more than the others now as it is closest. But if money were no object, I would go to Disneyland in California or Tokyo.

In both, there is still the atmosphere that is Disneyland. These days DLP is a little bit of a nightmare, it looks like Disneyland, it just doesn't feel like it anymore. Instead of the clip clop of the horsedrawn street car and the sounds of a barbershop quartet, we have a toon train with pop music and character dancing.

As I rode Big Thunder Mountain, it was a highly decorated coaster, but virtually none of the effects were working.

I used to love to stand on Boot Hill and watch the geysers erupt, surely an attraction rarely seen elsewhere, and they have laid dormant for over half a decade now.

My last trip on Buzz, I lost, my gun did not work.

So it felt a little like DL, but it wasn't. What was shocking was the same trip we went to Europa Park and Phantasialand, and when it came to maintenance, cleanliness, entertainment, food offerings and hotels, they out Disneyed Disneyland Paris. No, the theming and the rides were not quite on par (though I would tell thrill seekers to skip DLP and go to Europa Park or Alton Towers anyway, I don't want DLP to be a thrill park, it is supposed to be a family park - not a kid park, or teen park, but a park that appeals to all ages in every stage of their life - fwiw - my great grandmother went to DL for the first time for her 75th birthday and loved it, so much she returned 2-3 times a year until she died age 99, I couldn't see DLP having that effect now), but the feeling and atmosphere were. Shocking to me as a life long DL fan.

The other thing is, I think perhaps it was a bad move to make the park so toon based. Ok, I am biased, my first trip to DL was in 1974, my grandmother and mother had been going since 1955, I quite simply grew up going to a park that generations loved, and knew many Disneyland fans who could care less about animated features. I think that is what made DL so great (when I was a kid, other than a few characters roaming around, the only toons were in Fantasyland - much better then). I have taken my own children to DL too. So here was a park where I was the 2nd or 3rd generation to go, and I have taken my kids - the 4th gen. In DLP, the place was ripped apart from about 1997 onwards and we are only now having adults going who went as kids. To the vast majority, the toons are a big part of the experience, but also I have heard many say they have "grown bored of DLP, it's for kids". This rarely happens in California or WDW (although with more tooning there, the sentiment is growing). But so many do not know what they are missing because maybe they have only been to a local coaster park before. But I am always saddened when I see Americans in the park I love, and when I ask them what they think, often the answer is "It's pretty, but it does not feel like Disneyland/World", and they cannot put their finger on it.

Before anyone says, but we are in Europe, actually that is what I love about it. I love the mix of cultures. I love having a glass of wine on Main Street. I love what DLP was in the early years. And it would not be hard to fix if they had the money.

More live entertainment, better maintenance so everything works like new (if a 56 year old park can do it, surely a 20 year old park could), better cleanliness etc. Add in a night time show. Bring back the variety in shops and restaurants, and bingo, you have a world class Disney park again. The refurbs this year make me somewhat hopeful.

But think about all the additions in the last 10 years. With the exception, every single one of them have been toon themed with the exception of Tower of Terror (which was designed 15-20 years ago).  How many would be compelling to a teen/young adult that they love currently as a child? Buzz maybe, Crush Coaster for the visceral thrills, but none I could call a classic. How many restaurants have been turned into either buffets or character meals? too many IMHO.

Not everything has to be the next Pirates of the Caribbean, but by the same token, they do not need to be steel or toon based either.

[DopeyDad]

More live entertainment, better maintenance so everything works like new (if a 56 year old park can do it, surely a 20 year old park could), better cleanliness etc. Add in a night time show. Bring back the variety in shops and restaurants, and bingo, you have a world class Disney park again. The refurbs this year make me somewhat hopeful.

Morning Dave, as you know I have a very different perspective and experience of DLP but I think that's pretty much spot on. Our first visit (still less than 5 years ago but we've been twice a year most years since) had working geyser, great effects on rides like BTM, park in a much better state (some very severe winters since but still!), loads of main street vehicles, The Lion King (holiday highlight) and (I hesitate to add) loads of random character experiences, these were a real favorite with wife and children alike but they were far better than these organised scrums like the Roundup etc as you just encountered them in a spontaneous way rather than queuing for the usual 1 hour or so for a photo or being very English and watching your child continuously get ignored while they patiently wait and I muster a stern 'tut' to myself but can't quite manage the more continental tactic of throwing your children to the fore, (sorry rant over).
Anyhoo, all these things made the parks something to discover, things that would become familiar to us on subsequent visits but we'd still connect with that initial emotion.

The studios on the other hand have consistently improved in our experience since then with the exception of some amazing shows WDS felt like a fairly barren place compared to it's neighbour and only kept us for 1/2 a day. Here I think they need an E ticket, far better landscaping and a body of water. But absolutely for DLP it's the basics of quality and discoveries/encounters like entertainment, detail and atmosphere.