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[davewasbaloo]

Nicholai - this is why I am really worried about the logevity of the resorts. Kids grow up, they outgrow baby and kiddy things. I never outgrew PotC or HM as a kid, I still love them now. However, my kids have already outgrown Playhouse Disney, and most of the toon stuff (other than the Art of Animation) does not interest them much. It is a very dangerous trend.

[DLP-Photos.com]

Nicholai - this is why I am really worried about the logevity of the resorts. Kids grow up, they outgrow baby and kiddy things. I never outgrew PotC or HM as a kid, I still love them now. However, my kids have already outgrown Playhouse Disney, and most of the toon stuff (other than the Art of Animation) does not interest them much. It is a very dangerous trend.

I agree - my fascination of the parks is down to my early encounters in the 90's where I experienced what to me is the true Disneyland Paris and that has stayed with me and made me "addicted". Now the kids are told that Disneyland is all about meeting princesses and being dressed as one - while this is great it is only relevant for a very short range of age. Of course I do not know it, but I have a feeling that this experience doesn't make you want to keep going more than 15 years later...

[DutchBrit]

A few things, I am guessing that you meant 1996, DLP did not open until 1992

Ah yes, 1996.

Also, if it is aimed at kids, why do DLR, WDW and TDL all have wedding chapels? Why does Disneyland do live swing dancing and all the live entertainment, as well as re-opening a speciality perfume store?

Why did TDS run a campaign for TDS as a place for elderly people to go ( no kids focused on in those ads?).

I suspect you haven fallen into the trap...

First, not europe, yes? Different places, different cultures. This is sort of the point of this discussion. In the US etc, there is a demand for a wedding chapel. Perhaps if there was a perceived demand in Paris, there would be one there too. But I personally think they have made the correct decision in DLP. When I was 8, I might have thought getting married in Disneyland was a marvellous idea...but later? Not so much.

[davewasbaloo]

This is part of why I sometimes regret DLP being built at all. When it opened, it was the greatest park in the Disney empire (except the original), but the poor management choices and dumbing down of the place makes it a shadow of a Disney resort.

[DutchBrit]

You can also add:

Why does DL, WDW and TDR offer nightclubs, bars and adult only restaurants?
Why does DCL offer a pool on the ship where only adults are allowed and why is there an adult beach at Disney's private island?
Why do the Disney Resorts offer golf courses?
Why do the Disney Resorts offer business solutions?
And why did Disney build rides that aren't aimed towards children. E.g. SM, Expedition Everest, Mission Space or Test Track?


I hope none of the parents leave their kids in the rooms while enjoying a few drinks at a bar or a nightclub.

Again, mostly not europe (see other reply).

And for the things that are at Disney Paris, then that kind of negates the whole "There is nothing for adults at DLP" argument. But that is not the point: the point is the way that a European market considers amusement parks. I simply think that most people DO think of them as places mostly for children. And if you are operating in a European market, then those the parameters you have to work in. You may not like it (well, clearly you don't), but there you are.

[DutchBrit]

"You are dead if you aim only for kids"

"It's no secret that we were sticking just about every nickel we had on the chance that people would really be interested in something totally new and unique in the field of entertainment."

"Disneyland is a work of love. We didn't go into Disneyland just with the idea of making money."

These three things seems to be lacking in the latest additions in attractions, entertainment and advertising. All three are quotes of Walt Disney.

Uh-huh. I wonder if he would be saying the same things, today, if he was running Disneyland Paris? But seeing as he's been dead for almost 60 years, I guess we can never know....

[DutchBrit]

Nicholai - this is why I am really worried about the logevity of the resorts. Kids grow up, they outgrow baby and kiddy things. I never outgrew PotC or HM as a kid, I still love them now. However, my kids have already outgrown Playhouse Disney, and most of the toon stuff (other than the Art of Animation) does not interest them much. It is a very dangerous trend.

I agree - my fascination of the parks is down to my early encounters in the 90's where I experienced what to me is the true Disneyland Paris and that has stayed with me and made me "addicted". Now the kids are told that Disneyland is all about meeting princesses and being dressed as one - while this is great it is only relevant for a very short range of age. Of course I do not know it, but I have a feeling that this experience doesn't make you want to keep going more than 15 years later...

But is this a reasonable expectation? That you continue breeding an obsessive audience? Does anything work like that now? The Morecambe and Wise Christmas shows used to get 30 million viewers in the 70s. No-one expects any programme produced and shown today to get that. Not the way the world works anymore.

The thing about children is that there are always more of them. If you went to Disneyland as a child and enjoyed it, you'll probably take your children there and so on. You may not go repeatedly every single year every year of your life, but if every generation makes 2 or 3 trips, then I guess Disney will survive pretty well as a business.

[davewasbaloo]

Funny, when Walt was developing the concept of the park, he was criticised for not having coasters and ferris wheels, when the park was opened, he was criticised for not having characters everywhere. And yet it was a very success template that Disney has copied all over the globe, and other parks have copied Disney as well.

I think saying "if you aim at kids you are dead" is still very true today as it was in Walt's time.

There are people in the US and Japan that think Parks are for kids, they used to change their mind when they finally went.

There was an international incident when Krushev was not allowed to visit DL, I could never see that happening these days.

[DLP-Photos.com]

Of course you have to look at your market, and of course you have to look at the business part of it, but it is not for fun that these parks are filled with hints to Walt Disney and his original ideas. They are part of his legacy and maybe it is naive, but I would expect that they keep listening to him and his thoughts about the parks and their purpose - even though he's been dead for a long time. I see Disney as being way more than your average amusement park and I am sure that if they could convince every guest about this, they would come back even more times and Disney would survive even better as a business.

It is the legacy of the original ideas that has gotten Disney Parks to where they are today. Call me naive, but why not listen to Walt again: "When you're curious, you find lots of interesting things to do. And one thing it takes to accomplish something is courage." It just seems as the easy choice to aim so concentrated on kids and only just surviving. Perhaps if they dared taking a chance they would get the families and many more coming (ToT did this when it opened).

[DutchBrit]

I see Disney as being way more than your average amusement park and I am sure that if they could convince every guest about this, they would come back even more times and Disney would survive even better as a business. ).

It is more than the average amusement park. It's the most popular one in Europe. And that's great. But I don't think adding things like jazz bands, michelin stars and wedding chapels would really make it any more popular. Or that trying to appeal to a market that generally isn't there is a good way of spending their money.

It just seems as the easy choice to aim so concentrated on kids and only just surviving. Perhaps if they dared taking a chance they would get the families and many more coming (ToT did this when it opened).

Firstly, most popular park. So doing more than just surviving. And secondly, appeal to the kids and you get the families automatically. The under 16s generally don't travel unaccompanied.

[SM:M3]

The fact is, would Disneyland (Paris) be the most popular park if it didn't have that name behind it? Probably not by much. Other parks may not offer the full round themed experience of the main park, yet many come close and even have arguably "better" rides that everyone can enjoy. And although the Studios is basically a diamond in the rough, parks across Europe blow it out of the water. The sooner the current management realise this, and the fact that continual investment will bring guests, they'll pull their socks up. For example; last year Alton Towers opened TH13TEEN, widely panned by enthusiasts as it was arguably over-hyped, but the public love it and as a result Alton Towers celebrated one of the best seasons they've ever had, and I for one can't wait for my summer trip to Alton. My family had looked at Disney, but not only was the cost extortionate for 4 adults, but my parents genuinely thought it was for kids, despite the fact they went in the early days.

[DLP-Photos.com]

I'm just hoping that "most popular in Europe" doesn't become a sleeping pill for them - that's why I want them to keep attracting the older generations too. German parks are expanding with great themening, a new park is opening in Italy and Paramount is going to open a rival park in Spain - three main markets who get parks at home which offer top quality stuff.

Firstly, most popular park. So doing more than just surviving. And secondly, appeal to the kids and you get the families automatically. The under 16s generally don't travel unaccompanied.

Again, I am not saying that you shouldn't appeal to the kids - that would be crazy and also not in the spirit of Walt. I am just saying that you shouldn't only be doing this.

[davewasbaloo]

Agreed Forza, I was dumstruck at how amazing Europa Park, and to a lesser extent, Phantasialand were at Easter. I had read people on Trip Avisor stating they thought EP was better than Disney, and I thought these might come from thrill seekers. But when we got there, although I would not say they were better overall, they certainly were better at many things, and we were very pleasantly surprised. The hotels were miles better (and cheaper too). The service, maintenance and cleanliness were better too. The kids meals. The range of options.

As a life long Disney obsessive I was shocked. No, they do not have the theming on the scale of DLP (though the China section of Phantasialand and the Swiss section of EP did rival it). But in everything else, they beat it - shows, extending the hours because it was busier than planned, running attractions at capacity to get the queues down).

DLP needs to wake up.

[DutchBrit]

Again, I am not saying that you shouldn't appeal to the kids - that would be crazy and also not in the spirit of Walt. I am just saying that you shouldn't only be doing this.

Doesn't the fact that you continue to go back show that this is not the case? If it really was only for kids, then you and people like you would have stopped going. But you still keep visiting and wanting to visit. I agree, the main marketing does seem to be aimed at the family with younger kids demographic. But I happen to think that that is the demographic which makes the most sense in Europe, so there is actually nothing wrong with that strategy.

But then look at the last developments. Are those really ONLY aimed at kids? ToT? The Crush coaster? Even TSPL has a ride that most under 7s can't go on. So actually what DLP is lacking is attractions aimed at younger children. Personally I think they should have added to TSPL to make an actual playland that younger children could run about in and climb on things. In the absence of that sort of thing, they deserve a few more furry characters.....

I think Disney has something special that will keep people going that the other parks lack. I'm a good example: I am frankly not really a theme park person. I have never been to Alton Towers, Legoland, Europa Park or pretty much most of the other ones in Europe, nor would I have considered going to them when I was childless. But in that time I went to Disney parks twice. The only one I've been to more is the Efteling, and that's because it's about 40 minutes away from where I live!

[DLP-Photos.com]

Doesn't the fact that you continue to go back show that this is not the case?

No not all - as I have stated several times I only go because of the special connection I got in the 90's when the park was completely different. If I hadn't been there then, I probably wouldn't have been visiting at this time - I would ismply not have been aware that this park had something to offer for me. I even know a girl who is even more obsessed with Disney than me and the same age as me. She doesn't want to go, because she is afraid of being disappointed by it being to much for kids - that is a potential customer who would spent loads of money at the resort. I am afraid she is not the only one.

Are those really ONLY aimed at kids? ToT? The Crush coaster? Even TSPL has a ride that most under 7s can't go on.

As I have stated several times ToT is the expception and that proved to be a major success. It took much courage to build such an expensive ride in a park that was crying out for something for the younger audiences. Yet people flocked to WDS to experience this - no toons, no kids, but lots of atmosphere, themening and unique story-telling. TSPL is quite a paradox and as is Crush. It was clearly made to satisfy kids and I agree that this was needed in WDS at the time. However, Crush is a wild rollercoaster not suitable for kids, RC Racer has extreme height restrictions.

You could say that this should satisfy the older audience and it sure does when they go, but in advertisement these are advertised as childrens attractions and then fail to attract the audience who would really like it (this is mostly the case for TSPL).

I think Disney has something special that will keep people going that the other parks lack.

We agree in this and this in fact all I want them to keep having. Unfortunately right now this extra Disney touch seems to become more and more threaten and that saddens me. Don't get me wrong, I still see DLP as being superior to all the parks I have mentioned - I simply just want it to stay this way.

I can clearly feel that we both want the best for DLP - we just see two very different ways of securing this