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Back from Florida (Oct 2009)

Author Topic: Back from Florida (Oct 2009)  (Read 9688 times)

experiment627

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Re: Back from Florida (Oct 2009)
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2009, 09:42:46 PM »
Quote from: "The Butlin Boy"
I'm looking forward to seeing the other reports online soon :)

And I will keep them coming.  :)  Thanks for your kind comments!

Looking at Riebi's amazing California trip report, I'll burrow an idea (which I should have done a lot earlier) and give you a rundown of our trip:

1st day (October 10th) - Flight Munich-Charlotte-Orlando with Lufthansa (and the biggest jerk at US immigrations ever)

2nd day - SeaWorld

3rd day - Orlando Premium Outlet Mall & Clearwater Beach

4th day - St. Petersburg (Dalí Museum) & Naples

5th day - Relaxing in Naples

6th day - Everglades

7th day -  Ft. Lauderdale & Vero Beach

8th day - drive to WDW and half-day at the MK

9th day - AK & Epcot

10th day - Relaxing at Animal Kingdom Lodge & Epcot

11th day - Downtown Disney & Studios

12th day - AK & EMH at Epcot

13th day - Studios & Epcot

14th day - flight back home from Orlando to Chicago and then on the Munich... (Lufthansa again)


Is there any interest from you guys about what we did during our Florida road-trip?

I'll just add random thoughts anyway...  :)
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davewasbaloo

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Re: Back from Florida (Oct 2009)
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2009, 11:28:58 PM »
Quote from: "experiment627"


Is there any interest from you guys about what we did during our Florida road-trip?

I'll just add random thoughts anyway...  :)

WEll I always am. I like to compare notes or find out about new things to go on my bucketlist.
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Hibernia

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Re: Back from Florida (Oct 2009)
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2009, 11:12:49 AM »
Would also be interested in your thoughts about your accomodations from a professional pov as i'm a Travel Agent. Did you like the Vero Beach Resort? , never stayed there myself as we don't drive , we usually stick with on site Disney and Universal hotels.
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Disneyland Paris  - 1992 - 1996 - 1999 - 2002 - 2008 - 2009
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Disneyland LA  - 1997
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Disney Hotels stayed in - All Star Movies , Sport and Music - Port Orleans Riverside
Disney Cruise - 2003 - 2005 - 2006

experiment627

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Re: Back from Florida (Oct 2009)
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2009, 12:59:25 PM »
Quote from: "Hibernia"
Would also be interested in your thoughts about your accomodations from a professional pov as i'm a Travel Agent. Did you like the Vero Beach Resort? , never stayed there myself as we don't drive , we usually stick with on site Disney and Universal hotels.

Okay, I'll get to other part of our vacation then once I'm done covering WDW.

@davewasbaloo: thanks for your offer concerning the California trip planning on Riebi's thread! (I just didn't want to hijack that one for my own travel planning.)
California might be in the cards for 2012 (though I might end up in London for the Olympics, instead) or 2013.
My next big holiday is supposed to get me to Japan. This is not a decision of picking one Disney resort over another or cheaper airfare - I have just never been to Asia and I really want to go.  :)
But I will come back to you when I am getting serious about California!
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experiment627

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Re: Back from Florida (Oct 2009)
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2009, 01:49:08 PM »
Ok, next stop:
Disney's Hollywood Studios

We actually hadn't planned to spend too much time at the Studios. They just didn't sound that interesting to us. The major attractions can be found in Paris and we thought the park would lack atmosphere and substance. At one point, we were even discussing skipping this park altogether. But I wanted to give "Toy Story Mania" a chance...

Now imagine my surprise - the Studios turned out to be a whole lot of fun! We even returned for a 2nd (half-) day to finish up some things we didn't get to do that first day!

Now, about the attractions:
"Toy Story Mania" is an incredibly fun - and possibly addictive - ride. While "Buzz" can become
 a bit disappointing for those riders that are not as lucky with their laser guns as others, TSM left us with the feeling that everybody wins. The games are quite cool and the animation is beautiful.
We would have loved doing this ride over and over again. BUT: it has a horrible, HORRIBLE queue. Waiting for TSM (and waiting for the WDW busses ... another story for another time) was the most frustrating thing about our week at WDW. The line is moving at snail's pace. And as it is all indoors in one huge room, the noise level is headache-inducing. And while the Mr Potato Head AA is certainly a great piece of imagineering, after 45 minutes in this queue and listening to him saying and singing the same stuff over and over again, you feel like chopping him up, put some onions, oil, vinegar, pepper and salt (and a hint of mayonnaise) over the bits and pieces and to serve the potato as a nice salad...
We had a mother with two small children before us. And her boy (probably about 6 years old) was just running amok, climbing on the toy-props along the queue. Mom was so charmed by her little boy that she took lots of photos of him... other kids saw that and started acting in a similar way. And most parents just didn't do anything about it.
I will never EVER enter that queue again. And please don't start the old and tired argument of "bad guest behaviour" at DLP...
So, while the ride is A LOT of fun - the whole hour leading up to it was the low point of our WDW stay...
(And before you ask: Fastpasses for TSM run out faster than tickets for a Robbie Williams concert...)

The "Backlot Tour" at WDW might not have as much "content" as the one at WDS, but it sure looks prettier... Also with the great pre-show at the wanter-tank, it feels (at least to me) like a richer experience. Not to mention the final queue through that prop storage. So, I would prefer riding the WDW-version over the WDS one (even without the great "Reign of Fire"-set).

"MuppetVision 3D" is still one of the funniest shows ever - and probably the cleverest in combining 3D- with in-theatre-effects. And surprisingly enough: it has aged quite well...
It is just so hard to catch all of the hilarious pre-show. That requires some real timing!   :)

I went on "Star Tours" for old time's sake, as its days are numbered. I am not a big fan of the Studios-set up for this ride and think it fits much better into Tomorrow- / Discoveryland... The effects seemed to work.
Here, I encountered the most obvious of a very common WDW sight: that of the "fossil-CM". You see, as Florida is the retirement-capitol of the world, you have a lot of old folks there. And as the US-retirement might not be on the same level as the ones in the EU, many old people chose to work to earn a little extra money. And many of them can be found at WDW. We encountered grey haired bus drivers, hearing-impaired vendors, and attraction CMs that might very well remember voting for Roosevelt...
Now, at "Star Tours", our starspeeder's CM was and old, obviously overweight lady - on a cane... Forgive me for sounding rude towards the elderly, but: SERIOUSLY?!? Besides it not feeling quite right, I have to ask: what happens in the case of an emergency? These rides are huge machines. How will a CM like her handle an evacuation, for example?

"The Great Movie Ride" was still awesome. True, some of the AAs look quite fake (Gene Kelly, Julie Andrews, Sigourny Weaver) but others are just amazing (John Wayne, for example). Some scenes feel a bit long (Aliens) and we really struggled understanding a word during the mob-scene. But all in all, it is a wonderful tribute to the movies. And I would love to have an updated version of this ride in Paris.

With Sunset Boulevard leading up to it and the great gardens surrounding it, "Tower of Terror" at WDW has certainly the better set-up than the one in Paris. Walking through the gardens, it feels like you stepped into another world... But I would dare to say: our European "Tower" is more fun. And a bit more detailed inside. Also, the American CMs were not as playful as the ones in Paris. They seemed out of character (something I noticed on other rides as well). I encountered to very cheerful bellhops - and one that was sooo fat that she was just wearing a white shirt and khakis. No costume fitted her, I guess.
I also have to ask: why are some people so obsessed about the fifth dimension room? For me, the whole illusion of being on a spooky elevator stops there and it feels more like I am on a clunky ride with silly ghost house effects... but that might just be me.
Still, the setting of the original "Tower" is just amazing.

Similar things can be said about "Rock'n'Rollercoaster", as well. It might look better from the outside, but the actual ride experience is quite disappointing compared to Paris. However, I love that they still got a real pre-show with the band. And the approach of racing through L.A. to a concert is quite cool - it is the execution that is lacking.
Also, "RnR" at WDW has become a real headbanger and reminiscent of our "Space Mountain"... So I have to wonder how "RnR" is holding up at WDS these days...

Last thing we did was watching "Fantasmic" - we arrived about 70 minutes before showtime and the theatre was half-full, already. As ightenhill has already mentioned in his awesome report, Disney actually came back to its senses and scheduled (almost) daily performances of the show for the week we were there - even though their calendar had sad otherwise. I won't complain.
The show is a delight. The "Pocahontas" scene might seem out of place, but "Fantasmic" is still well worth turning up 70 minutes before.


To wrap it up: Disney's Hollywood Studios was such a pleasant and fun surprise for us! We hadn't expected much after previous experiences at this park. But we just had a good time.
Of course, you cannot visit this park without making comparisons with Paris, and here it is:
While the Walt Disney Studios have the overall better content when it comes to its rides and shows, it is the presentation that make Disney's Hollywood Studios just such a rich, fun and, well, Disney experience. (Now, WDS can still get there... nothing that half a billion Euros shouldn't be able to fix...)
But just walking down Hollywood Boulevard, entering different zones like the (well designed) Pixar Place, the Streets of America or the Backlot make you feel like you are in a Disney park. Something that WDS fails to accomplish once you step out of Studio 1.... So (sadly) I would have preferred a carbon copy of WDW's Studios than what we got in Paris...

In short, while Animal Kingdom and Epcot make WDW for us, it was the Studios which proved to be a great diversion with fun attractions and excellent theming.

Please click here for the Facebook-photo-album...







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dagobert

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Re: Back from Florida (Oct 2009)
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2009, 02:24:34 PM »
Again, on most things I have to agree with you.

The Tower of Terror is more fun in Paris, although the setting is nicer at WDW. The same with RnRC, we had the feeling that the ride was not as fast as in Paris. Did you have the same feeling?

Unfortunately Toy Story Mania wasn't already open when we have been to WDW.
We enjoyed Muppet Vision a lot and all the stage shows were enjoyable too, especially Sleeping Beauty.

The theming of DHS is far better compared to WDS (except the big blue hat in front of the Chinese Theatre), but WDS is catching up. I really hope that WDS will get a Hollywood Street or a Sunset Blvd. in the future.
All in all we think that most attractions that can be found in both Studios parks are better in Europe.

The Great Movie Ride is a very nice attraction and I really hope that it will make its way to Paris, although I doubt it.

Fantasmic was great, but it would have been better if the weather wasn't that cold. The park was sold out of blankets so people had to wrap themselves into towels.

I don't want to talk about guest behavior, but I have to say that guest behavior isn't better at WDW than in Paris. Rude people are everywhere.
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davewasbaloo

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Re: Back from Florida (Oct 2009)
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2009, 03:03:39 PM »
Quote from: "experiment627"

@davewasbaloo: thanks for your offer concerning the California trip planning on Riebi's thread! (I just didn't want to hijack that one for my own travel planning.)
California might be in the cards for 2012 (though I might end up in London for the Olympics, instead) or 2013.
My next big holiday is supposed to get me to Japan. This is not a decision of picking one Disney resort over another or cheaper airfare - I have just never been to Asia and I really want to go.  :)
But I will come back to you when I am getting serious about California!

I hear you. We are currently saving up for Japan as we have not yet been, the quality is supposed to be closer to old school Disney, and the air fare is currently working out cheaper than a trip to the states!

And if you want to talk London, again, let me know.
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davewasbaloo

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Re: Back from Florida (Oct 2009)
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2009, 03:09:51 PM »
We seem to see a lot eye to eye. DHS is quite a nice looking park in the main, but WDS has better attractions overall. If we had more theming, a GMR and MuppetVision 3D, I do not know if I would ever feel the need to enter DHS.

And if you want to see an awesome F!, then California is the place to go. After seeing that version, I hate Florida's.

As for the buses, I am bracing myself. That is the one aspect that really put a HUGE dampener on our last trip to WDW. Never again.
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dagobert

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Re: Back from Florida (Oct 2009)
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2009, 03:52:46 PM »
It is a big advantage of DLRP that everything is in walking distance and you don't have to rely on buses.
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davewasbaloo

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Re: Back from Florida (Oct 2009)
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2009, 04:15:20 PM »
Definately, and that is what I adore about Disneyland too, especially if staying in the Grand Californian. Just like when we go to Tokyo, I want to stay in either the Miracosta or DLH so it is on foot or by monorail only.

IF we ever go to WDW, we will either have a car or stay at the Polynesian.
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RnRCj

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Re: Back from Florida (Oct 2009)
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2009, 05:52:52 PM »
I completely agree with everything you said about DHS. Being such a huge fan of Paris' RnRC, I was very disappointed the Florida version when I first rode it. It does look better on the outside, but I found the ride itself to be quite dull. It worries me a little that their one is getting rough now. I didn't find our version any rougher last September, but I have a feeling it will within a few years.

Interesting to hear your thoughts on TSM. It wasn't built when I went, but going by pics and videos I can't say it appeals to me very much. Is it really that fun? :lol:
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Riebi

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Re: Back from Florida (Oct 2009)
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2009, 06:46:03 PM »
Quote from: "experiment627"
[
Is there any interest from you guys about what we did during our Florida road-trip?


YES YES YES  :mrgreen:
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experiment627

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Re: Back from Florida (Oct 2009)
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2009, 09:59:08 PM »
Quote from: "dagobert"
The theming of DHS is far better compared to WDS (except the big blue hat in front of the Chinese Theatre), but WDS is catching up. I really hope that WDS will get a Hollywood Street or a Sunset Blvd. in the future.

I wouldn't mind that Sorcerer's Hat that much as a park icon - if it wouldn't block the wonderful Chinese Theatre...

Quote from: "davewasbaloo"
We seem to see a lot eye to eye. DHS is quite a nice looking park in the main, but WDS has better attractions overall. If we had more theming, a GMR and MuppetVision 3D, I do not know if I would ever feel the need to enter DHS.

But will we ever get to the point where the WDS will be as themed as DHS? With various pathways and clearly different areas? At this pace, I have my doubts...

Quote
IF we ever go to WDW, we will either have a car or stay at the Polynesian.

I'd pick one of the Epcot Resorts, myself... (Also cheaper than the overpriced MK-hotels...)

Quote from: "RnRCj"
Interesting to hear your thoughts on TSM. It wasn't built when I went, but going by pics and videos I can't say it appeals to me very much. Is it really that fun?

Surprisingly, it is.
Yes, it is basically a video game on a ride vehicle. But it is just so beautifully frantic that it turns out to be a lot of fun. With the different "levels" and the different "targets" or little things (like wind blowing into your face) etc. it's a cool experience... And I did not expect that. I would not mind getting this as a Toy Story Playland expansion.

It's a very solid C-ticket, I would say. Maybe a D.
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experiment627

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Re: Back from Florida (Oct 2009)
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2009, 02:37:47 PM »
Mhm... I think this report is less of a report and more of just rambling along... I hope you guys don't mind.  :wink:

Now, where were we?
Ah, yes:

Epcot

What a unique place this is.. It seems less frantic than other theme parks. In fact, it doesn't really feel like a theme park. That also means it doesn't transport you into another world as much. But then again, that's not the idea behind Epcot, I guess. It's supposed to show you how amazing our world is. And it does a very fine job at that, I might say.

You can see a lot of what is now to be found at Science Centers all over the world first introduced here at Epcot. Which, as a consequence, makes some parts of Epcot less special, fresh and amazing as they once were. (Best example: The Seas pavilion - its huge water tank is just not that amazing anymore when there are wonderful aquariums all around and with Sea Life Centres being a common attraction nowadays.)

But I'd better stick to my "attraction by attraction" approach... for now.

I simply loved the new "Spaceship Earth". Its storyline comes over as quite crisp and easy to follow. One can argue about the new narration (I quite liked it), but the best bit is: you can chose your language! Via touch-screen you can chose if you want to experience the ride either in English, German, Spanish, French or Portuguese. Quite cool (and a great idea for future DLP-rides...).
The little gimmick with Disney taking your picture and then putting it on a character in a future-scenario that you design is also pretty entertaining. Thumbs up!!
The Siemens-post-show area also is quite impressive with some cool interactive games. (Which were always busy - except for the reaction time-training.) Overall, very well done!

We passed the new "Sum of all Thrills". Looked like a lovechild of Cyber Space Mountain and the Kuka-robo-coaster they are having at Legoland in Bavaria.  So nothing special. I wasn't tempted on trying it out.

I am not quite sure what to think of "The Seas with Nemo and Friends". The "Nemo"-dark ride bit looks good, no doubt about it. And I see how the addition of these characters add to the appeal of the "Seas" (especially, as I already mentioned, when aquariums aren't that much of a deal nowadays). To me, the animals at the Seas, now appear like a bit of an afterthought. There's no storyline of where we are going and why we are under the sea...

"Soarin'" amazes me. And everyone around me, too, it  seems. Which is odd, as it is probably the least themed ride in all of WDW. And yet it achieves great emotional hights. A work of beauty, truly.
Since my last visit (2006), they have added new interactive games to the ride's queue to keep people entertained. And it works terrificly. People waiting are split into groups that have to compete against each other. We played a kind of "Bubble"-game and had to steer an eagle through canyons. The graphics might not be much (a bit like Wii), but how the motion capturing works is amazing. (To steer the eagle, for example, you lean left or right. To burst a bubble, you try to touch it with your hand...) It was fun. And it helped to pass the time.

We had lunch at the "Seasons Food Fair" next to "Soarin", which offers wonderful, fresh dishes. One of my favourite foodcourts at WDW - and I'd wish we had something similar at DLP... I enjoyed a great Asian noodle dish (again) and a very tasty key lime pie. My parents' sandwiches were als really good (and huge! but that seems to be the norm in the US...)

"Living with the Land" (the boat-ride) is pretty good, too. The green houses are quite an attraction, I have to say. A good way to spend some time while waiting for your Fastpass on "Soarin".  :wink:

The "Imaginations" pavilion needs a new "Wow". While "Journy Into Imagination" is not the worst ride, you wouldn't miss much if you skipped it.
And speaking of skipping rides: we didn't go to see "HISTA"... Why should  we?

"Mission: Space" is ok - and by far not as intense as people claim it to be. It lacks substance, however. It never manages to show you how cool space exploration is. "Mission: Space" is not a pavilion like the attractions on the other side of Epcot's Future World, but - unfortunately - just a ride. And, while  fun, not among Disney's best.

Same could  be said, I think, about "Test Track". It *is* fun. But I got the feeling it's more of a "test track" for Disney's ride technology (which will be used for the "Cars"-attraction at DCA, I believe)... The speed-part at the end might be fun, but I could do without zipping over Epcot's CM-parking lot...
That said, the Single Rider Line worked magnificently. While standbye was about 40 minutes, we got on immediately (missing out on the pre-show movie... but that's not a big loss, I think).

I hope I am not coming off as too critical. I love Epcot. And I love Future World. It is just very obvious how hard it is to keep this part of the park "up-to-date". It lacks the timelessness of other Disney parks...

We stopped by the Coca Cola showroom and enjoyed some free sodas. Loved the ginger ale from Mozambique and the sodas from Japan and Israel...
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experiment627

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Re: Back from Florida (Oct 2009)
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2009, 04:11:54 PM »
Epcot (continued)

Moving on to World Showcase:
The new Canada-movie with Martin Short is fun. And Canada is still a beautiful place. They should add a travel agency to World Showcase, I think. It would do great business!  :wink:
One thing that is a bit annoying is that pretty much in all of the World Showcase-movies (except for France...) they claim that each country's biggest attraction are its people. This might be very true, but the message gets a bit old after a while.  :wink:

Passed through the United Kingdom - nothing to see here folks, so keep on moving!  :wink: - and on to France. Probably my favourite pavilion. As it reminds me so much of Paris (and the wonderful times I had in this magnificent city...) with all its details.
We enjoyed a wonderful dinner at "Chefs de France". I had duck (like I do in France, too) and Creme Brulée - though the dessert was pre-made (the sugar was cold). It was a good evening. And we had great service. By the way, is it customary in the US that the waiter shakes your hand when saying goodbye? Either that or we might have overtipped the guy.  :wink:
(Have I mentioned already how much I hate tipping the US?? It tears you apart between your lack of mathematical skills and a bad conscience of not tipping enough...)

Of all the movie-attractions around World Showcase, I think I enjoy the French one the most. It is beautiful. And hasn't aged that badly. Still, I think it's rather funny that the CMs working at the pavilion are probably all younger than the film is.

The "Food & Wine Festival" was going on while we were at WDW. For me, it doesn't hold that much appeal, I have to say. It might be different for locals. But as a tourist, I don't see it as that much of an attraction. For my taste, the selection at the kiosks seemed a bit limited. And / or overpriced. I opted to have a proper meal at one of the pavilions instead. And as we didn't attend any of the seminars, I guess we must have missed out on something.
This year, the food stands were dedicated to single cities instead of countries. Which I think is a cool idea. If they would actually do it right! I passed the "Munich"-kiosk. Living in Munich, of course I wanted to know what they offered (and how much they charge for it.  :wink: ) Out of the different items on their menu, I'd say maybe one was a genuine speciality from Munich. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that "bratwurst nuremberg-style" is not from Munich. The spätzle-gratin (something I adore and am quite at making myself, if I may say so) is of course served in many restaurants in Munich, but is more a Swabian (Stuttgart-Augsburg area) than Bavarian... So, I do have my doubts about the whole Food & Wine concept...

Bought a Super Mario t-shirt in Japan from the cutest Japanese CM ever and iced Green Tea, which didn't work out as well as hoped...

We went to see "The American Adventure", which is an impressive show with some wonderful AAs. (I love the fact that Mark Twain is smoking... on stage  8) ) Not being American one watches the show with a more critical eye, I guess. Of course, there were was some patriotism in the show that was hard to swallow. But also, every once in a while, a critical comment.
No matter if you agree with the content of the show (and its historic accuracy), "The American Adventure" is a unique and quite impressive Disney attraction.

Italy, unfortunately, doesn't offer that much to do or see - not even a gallery of Italy's amazing art or history...

Same could be said of Germany, I guess. But it's fun looking at the clichés of one's own country. (Which, after having lived in Munich for nearly two years, are not that as far away from the truth as one would believe in other parts of Germany...  :wink: )
I still don't understand why Americans believe we Germans would put pickles on our Christmas trees. And a good deal of the sweets on sale were actually from Switzerland and Austria. But who cares?  :wink:
Just ONE thing I really have to critisize: why oh why do they have to sell Löwenbräu-beer?!?!? That's probably the worst beer coming out of Munich... (But rather drinkable as a panache - or "Radler" in German.) Strangely enough, the Food & Wine's beer stand was offering Hacker-Pschorr beer. (Which is considerably better...)

China - amazing 360°-movie, wonderful architecture. Cool shop. Enough said.

Norway has a weird boat ride with the most dated movie at the end ever. Instead of showing Norway's amazing landscape, we got to see a lot of 1980's Norwegians. Made me wish to go to Sweden instead...

Now, to wrap this up (man, Epcot is taking forever to sum up...  :wink: ): Mexico!
We had another enjoyable dinner here. The atmosphere of the San Angel Inn between the indoor-marketplace and the boat ride is nice. But the lighting is almost too dark to read the menu... And it might be hard for the waiters to read something, too, as they mixed up our order quite a bit. But it was sorted out within 5 minutes. The food was good, yet not outstanding. The evening made me long for  going back to Blue Lagoon one of these days...
Now, the big surprise for me at Epcot: the "Gran Fiesta Tour starring the Three Caballeros". It's a character-overlay of the old Mexican boat-ride. True. But it is so well done! It is just a riot following Donald Duck (animated in the style of the 1940's movie!!!), José Carrioca and Panchito through Mexico. Instead of the once boring "River of Time", we now have a fun look at this Latin American country.
Went on it three times and bought the t-shirt.
That's how much I loved the updated ride.

Did I forget to mention anything?
Oh yes, "Imaginations: Reflections of Earth" - still the best nighttime-show on property. And probably my favourite Disney show ever. We watched it twice, once from Japan and once from Norway. I would recommend the Norway-spot.
It's not so much the fireworks (fireworks, actually, bore me just a bit), it's the whole package that make "Imaginations" so moving: the music, the pictures on the globe, the fire- and fountain-effects and the beautifully naive message of one global community.

Phew... that took quite some time to write.

What's left to say: Epcot is one of my favourite places in the world. Even if I was quite critical in what I just wrote down.
Its Epcot's message of how amazing this world is that appeals to me. Can't wait to visit again...

Pictures can be found at: http://http://http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=332092&l=2d6f8a70c5&id=786560205
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 10:43:15 AM by experiment627 »