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[king_spoon_ian]

So, I've just come back from a week in Disneyland, and I was surprised to see that the sausages on the majority of Menu Enfants throughout the park (such as those at La Chalet Du Marionette, Videopolis, etc), had been changed from common or garden frankfurters to "Saucisse Veau", or, Veal Sausages (if my ropey french hasn't failed me).

Not only did this surprise me, as I thought veal was meant to be quite expensive, but it also seems a bit morally... questionable, and an area I would have thought Disney would probably have tried to avoid.

So, I thought I'd put it to the forum - what do you think of the practice of selling kids meals with veal (baby cow) sausages?

Of course, Veal welfare standards vary greatly, and whilst (apparently) in the UK the calves are generally kept in better conditions due to the consumer backlash, according to the BBC (<!-- m -->http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/food_matters/veal.shtml<!-- m -->) the same is not always true for veal on the continent. With no way of knowing where the meat for the Disney sausages have come from (no welfare certification, no information other than "veal"), it's hard to know what to presume.

Thoughts?

[davewasbaloo]

Veal Sausages has been on the menu at DLP since the very beginning at Buffalo Bills and in all the breakfast buffets at the DLH and HNY. I love veal very much.

As for the treatment of the calves, well, who knows what Disney's policy is, but then why do we not also ask questions of the Nestle products on sale, and the treatment of African preganancies with nestle powdered milk. Or the sweat shops that produce the pins and plushes in China.

There is a dark side to every company, and Disney, while better than many, are not squeeky clean. It is right to question these things, but I guarentee, if you delve deeply, you will probably not like what you see.

[id@53]

I'll try and keep this as neutral as possible - what do you think of the practice of selling kids meals with sausages that are made of out baby cows, which have been kept in stupidly crampt conditions, completely unable to move, before being slaughtered at a very young age?

As someone who grew up on a farm, I thought it only appropriate to provide the following information in relation to a couple of king_spoon_ian points:

1. The use of Veal Crates was banned throughout the European Union in 2007.
2. Very young calves (that are most susceptible to disease and therefore benefit from a degree of isolation) are kept in hutches which keep them warm and isolated with food, water, and straw bedding freely available. When they are a little older and less vulnerable to disease, they are moved to group housing.
3. The age at which the calf is slaughtered depends on the market. UK reared veal calves are generally slaughtered at around 30 to 35 weeks though in North America veal calves can be slaughtered within days of being born.
4. The veal industry's support for the dairy industry goes beyond the purchase of surplus calves. It also buys large amounts of milk by-products as almost 70% of veal feeds are milk derived products. Most popular are whey and whey protein concentrate which are in themselves the by-products of the manufacture of cheese.  If there was no market for the by-products then we'd all be paying more for our cheese, skimmed milk, etc.

Maybe you'd prefer your children to eat chicken nuggets at Disneyland Paris.  Of course, [strike:1czylelj]Veal[/strike:1czylelj] Chicken welfare standards vary greatly.....With no way of knowing where the meat for the Disney [strike:1czylelj]sausages[/strike:1czylelj] chicken nuggets have come from (no welfare certification, no information other than "[strike:1czylelj]veal[/strike:1czylelj] chicken nuggets"), it's hard to know what to presume.  Standard chickens are grown from newly hatched chick to oven-ready (or nugget ready mechanically reclaimed meat) in just 39 days.

Hugh Fernley Whittingstall's Chicken Out web site

Poultry scientists have bred chickens which grow fast. As they grow, their living space – smaller than an A4 piece of paper for each bird – gets more and more cramped as they near the end of their short lives. With around 17 birds packed into each square metre they have barely enough space to walk, preen themselves, stretch their wings or even turn around.

Such cramped conditions and rapid growth cause severe welfare problems. Chronic lameness is common – one third of chickens have difficulty walking without pain. The stress on their hearts and lungs can cause heart failure. About 5% die or have to be culled prematurely.

A typical chicken shed holds 40,000 birds... They never set foot outside or see natural light... They feed around the clock - with as little as one hour of darkness for every 24 hour period.

It's not nice – but it's certainly cheap.

Then there's the fish you eat.  Whilst farmed fish are seen as a renewable resource, the same isn't necessarily true for their diet. Salmon, cod, sea bass and sea bream are fed fishmeal pellets made from edible wild species such as sardines, pilchard and blue whiting. It can take more than three kilos of fish to produce a kilo of salmon, so this equation represents a greater loss of wild fish than if people simply ate the mackerel, sardines and other small fish.

100+ years ago, before the industrial revolution brought the majority of people of the land and into towns and cities most families would have led a subsistence type of lifestyle and would have reared and slaughtered their own livestock but current intensive farming methods have come about as a result of demand for a cheap, plentiful food supply. BUT, we all have a choice. I don't live on a farm anymore but, with the exception of our Butcher's sausages, we don't buy any pre-processed meat/poultry/fish products (burgers, nuggets, fish fingers, etc.). We much prefer to make our own burgers and nuggets and fish fingers sourcing our meat from our local butcher and (we're lucky enough to live near a fishing port where I can buy line caught) fish straight of the boat. And whilst I didn't rear the animals myself, I am happy that I know where my food is coming from.  I'm also putting more of my money into the pocket of the farmer or fisherman and less into the pocket of Mr Tesco/Sainsbury/Asda and to me that's a good thing.

[Alpop]

Uh oh... Can of worms. :shock:  :shock:  :shock:

Although I too was a little shocked when you mentioned Veal sausages for children's meals. I'm sure that my opinion is based upon outdated information. The veal crates were banned in 2007, which is fairly recent so I'm not even ashamed to say that I didn't know.

I think that I would prefer my daughter to be eating good quality sausages than questionable chicken nuggets. Even then this whole food debate could spiral (nice post though).

After I've analysed the info in the previous post I'm thinking Mmmm Veal sausage (plus I must have had them at DLH for breakfast).

[mommy2ash]

i would never ever eat veal. i find it apalling to say the least and i would definately never give it to my daughter. i would prefer regular sausages at least i know my dd would eat them.

[Pete's Dragon]

I love the veal sausages and the kids do too. They usually eat a dozen when we visit Cafe Mickeys.
As for where the meat comes from, its the same answer for all the food I eat....I don't really care.
All that bothers me is
1) Is it tasty
2) Having ate that, do I feel sick or partially blind as a result.

If the answers are Yes, and then a No, I'm a happy carnivore !!!

[id@53]

mommy2ash, can I ask what in particular you find appalling about veal?

[smurfy74]

im so glad you put that about the life span of chickens being 30 something days, [-o<  [-o<  many people dont realise that. I come from a agricultural supply/services background ( my dads a butcher and was a slaughterman and my grandad was a manager of a farm feed company ) There is some irrational thought behind veal in the UK as calves are "cute" its the same as eating horse, which to me is ok, again people get emotional about this too.

obviously feeding a child mechanically reclaimed pork sausages with with pork connective tissue in it - is fine as they look nice  :?  :?  :?  :?  not

[Adam]

I'm sure the breakfast sausages have been poultry sausages for years? I have seen the little signs next to the dishes.

[Krollok]

Cows are called veals till they give milk, that means till they give birth the first time. so it´s possible (but not very probable) that eat a 20 years old veal.

[kiki_304]

What difference does it make to the cow, it's going to be killed to feed someone anyway.

I think if you can eat a cow you can eat the calf.  If you have feelings of guilt over the calf then don't eat it's mother or father.

BTW... That reads more harsh than it is meant to.  :roll:

[mommy2ash]

mommy2ash, can I ask what in particular you find appalling about veal?

i actually did some research into this and no matter what way either side put it those animals are tortured for the duration of their life. they are only fed liquids, are iron deficient and not allowed exercise or to see the light of day as that would ruin the colour and texture of the meat. i have read articles from both sides of the fence and no matter how you sugar coat it thats what it boils down to. before anyone askes i always buy free range chickens and eggs. yes we eat other animals but we dont have to torture them.

[id@53]

I'm going to try and answer or respond to the points raised by mommy2ash rather than try and say she is wrong and I am right and everyone should eat Veal because I say so.

those animals are tortured for the duration of their life

I think that that is a very strong and emotive statement, but also incorrect. There were many poor practices in the past that could be at worst deemed cruel but not torture (just think of our own history with poor houses, child chimney sweeps, mental health patient care, etc.) but since the European-wide ban on veal crates was introduced in January 2007, calves up to eight weeks old are generally kept in individual pens (or hutches) which keep them warm and isolated that in turn reduces the risk of disease eg. Calf Scours, Rotavirus, Salmonellosis, etc., spreading through the herd.  They have access to food and water, and straw bedding is freely available. In these pens, they can turn around and be in contact (not physically) with other calves. After this, they are reared in groups of up to 80 calves.

I couldn't find EU wide statistics, but approximately 570,000 male Holstein-Friesian calves are born in the UK per annum. This is, for want of a better word, a by-product of our demand for milk and cheese and yoghurt and al things dairy. In recent years, movement restrictions for the control of TB and low demand from beef farmers (Holstein-Friesian cattle are great milkers put provide poor quality meat) have resulted in some 150,000 such calves being culled shortly after birth - they don't even make it into the Veal supply chain, some are simply shot by the farmer because they are worthless.

they are only fed liquids, are iron deficient and not allowed exercise or to see the light of day as that would ruin the colour and texture of the meat

There are three main types of veal:

1. Bobby Veal from calves that are slaughtered a few days after birth (this is mainly produced in North America though there is small quantities produced in Europe. This is going to be light in colour due to the age of the calf when killed.
2. Formula-Fed or "milk-fed" Veal from calves that are raised on a nutritionally complete milk formula supplement.  By the way, this is the same milk formula supplement that is used to feed the calves that go into the beef herd.
3. Non-Formula-Fed or "grain-fed" Veal from calves that are raised on grain, hay or other solid food in addition to milk or milk formula supplements.

i have read articles from both sides of the fence and no matter how you sugar coat it thats what it boils down to

Humanely reared British veal is now being marketed under the Freedom Food label, the RSPCA's farm animal welfare food labelling scheme. The calves are inspected to detailed higher welfare standards, laid down and monitored by the RSPCA. They live in small groups, with deep straw bedding, access to fibre, and a diet that keeps them in full health and vigour.

[king_spoon_ian]

rather than try and say she is wrong and I am right and everyone should eat Veal because I say so.

I don't think anyone was trying to do that.

With regards to the response you made to my point, all the information I got was from the BBC website - I'm not sure how up to date that is. To be honest, I'm still not sure whether I like the sound of the solitary confinement. Is this something that happens to all cattle, or just veal?

I knew this was probably going to open a can of worms, but I also know that veal is a very controversial subject, which is why I was questioning Disney's logic in putting it in their kids meals. I also wanted to make sure people knew what the sausages were, as there's no English translation on any of the signs (that I can see).

For the price they're selling it at, the veal sausage seems an unusual inclusion too, as I was always under the impression that veal was expensive, which leads me to question whether or not the sausages really are going to be as high a quality as people seem to think.

Humanely reared British veal is now being marketed under the Freedom Food label, the RSPCA's farm animal welfare food labelling scheme. The calves are inspected to detailed higher welfare standards, laid down and monitored by the RSPCA. They live in small groups, with deep straw bedding, access to fibre, and a diet that keeps them in full health and vigour.

I'm not convinced that things like the RSPCA's "Freedom Foods" label are actually that useful. Did anyone else see that investigation a few months back on the news? I can't find a link to it, but a farm with the Freedom Foods label (or equivalent) was basically proven to be keeping their poultry in the worst possible conditions. I've always wondered exactly how rigorous these standards are anyway.

[id@53]

To be honest, I'm still not sure whether I like the sound of the solitary confinement you're presenting as being the better option. Is this something that happens to all cattle, or just veal?

In my experience, with the exception of "suckler" reared beef cattle, the vast majority of commercially farmed calves (be they being reared for veal, beef or dairy herd replacement) spend the initial part of their lives seperated from one and other. This reason behind this is that calves, like any young mammals, are highly susceptable to rapidly spreading diseases and by keeping them apart their health and feed intake can be closely monitored.

I also know that veal is a very controversial subject, which is why I was questioning Disney's logic in putting it in their kids meals.

It's not a controversial subject for everyone. Veal represents 10% of the EU beef market, with average consumption per capita amounting to 1.7kg per head. France and Italy have a long tradition of consuming veal and together, these two markets account for 65% of total EU veal consumption, with 4kg consumed annually per capita.

For the price they're selling it at, the veal sausage seems an unusal inclusion too, as I was always under the impression that veal was expensive

So is steak or pork loin.

which leads me to question whether or not the sausages really are going to be as high a quality as people seem to think.

Just like I question the quality of the ingredients that go into the frankfurter that the Veal sausage replaced or the quality of the chicken in the nuggets or the beef in the burgers or the pork in a supermarket pork sausage.

Whilst you are obviously knowledgeable about veal production, due to your upbringing on a farm, it's also fairly likely that you will have a biased viewpoint into this thing, as will everyone.

I grew up on a Beef and Chicken (egg production and eating fowl) farm. I bought calves that were only a day or two old and fed and reared them until they reached the appropriate weight and conditioning and them happily sent them to be slaughtered. In some cases I even helped butcher the carcass (my late grand father was a master butcher) for our own freezer. My point is that I know what it takes to produce the meat that ends up on the consumer's plate and that my bias is towards trying to defend the Farmer in general (not just the Veal producer) from consumers who on one hand question the morals and/or methods used in production (because they've read something on a web site) but on the other hand complain about the cost of what they are buying.