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[Patrick89]

Walt Disney would turn in his grave if he knew what is happening with his parks...

[spicy]

davewasbaloo have you ever worked for The Disney theme parks? Or even considered working for them?

It's just you seem incredibly passionate about the Disney company and it's parks and have some genuinely good ideas that should be put forward from what I've read of your posts. It's clear how you feel about the Disney parks by how active you are on these forums and I feel Disney are currently lacking your sort of enthusiasm and passion for the parks which make them go for these cheaper alternatives such as TSPL.

Just my opinion obviously but thought I'd voice it  

[davewasbaloo]

That is very kind spicy, I did work for the Disney Store as a teen and had dreamed of working for Disney when younger. But I know many senior people at Disney, and decided not to work for them for fear that the magic would disappear. It has disappeared for me, but hopefully much slower than if I had been inside.

But a number of the awesome imagineers have been relegated to "special projects" to get rid of their influence, and folks like Jay Rasulo has been promoted and promoted for increasing margins through cutting. Sadly, that is what Wall Street is interested in - short term profits. Long term vision no longer really exists, not at Disney anymore.

So now although I try to campaign for change, I am trying to find new companies to be passionate about. Mack, Red Bull etc. these firms understand quality and long term impact.

In the halls of TWDC and WDI there is an insult they commonly use, they are called Walties.  They do not think folks that trust in Walt's vision has a place in the company anymore.

[ed-uk]

Well that's your view of the Walt Disney Company but I don't share it and I just have to say so. If you look at all the work being done at DCA, the expansion of Fantasyland at the MK. It doesn't look like a company that has lost site of Walt's vision to me. The company has built some great things on Walt's legacy, but he couldn't  afford to buy his own hotel, he had to beg the Wrather Company to build a hotel at Disneyland. Look at the company now, 11 theme parks  and breaking into mainland China with many exciting things to look forward to there I'm sure. The Disney Store, Cruise Line, hotels and Disney Theatre. I'm not surprised that Wall street and profits matter to the WDC, people invest their money with Disney, pension funds, small and big investors, these people don't want to loose their savings they want dividends. That's how it works isn't it?

[davewasbaloo]

I am not sure walt would have been pleased with half the attractions, nor the tooning. And he was notorious about pushing the envelope, which has been lacking in many ways unless tied to toons.

[ed-uk]

What do you mean half the attractions, what are you talking about? Splash Mountain, TOT, SM, BTM, Star Tours, Electrical Parade, Little Mermaid, World of Colour, etc etc. You think Walt Disney wouldn't have liked them. And as for Toons, he didn't name his castle Sleeping Beauty Castle for nothing, he was working on the toon film at the time.

[davewasbaloo]

But you named less than 10% of the creations since his death, and while he did enjoy animation, it was in his later years, only a very small part of his interests. He was very disinterested in the MK when designing WDW, there are numerous books written on the subject, for him it was all about Epcot.

Also look at his proudest creations. Most of the toon stuff was done in 1955 and a little bit after. The things he was really excited about had nothing to do with toons - Mine Train Through Natures's Wonderland, the Subs, Monorail, Matterhorn, the World's Fair of 64, the opening of the Winter Olympics, the Mineral King and Pyramid Lake projects, Tomorrowland on the move 1967, NOS (inc PotC, and the early designs of the Haunted Mansion), Epcot etc.

[ed-uk]

Mineral King and Pyramid Lake (not heard of that one) never happened. What Walt did in 1955 is fair enough, but it's 2011 now and I doubt you could run a company or a theme park in the same way today, the world has moved on. The roots of the WDC are in animation, it may have become a small part of his  interests, but he still kept making the films. Walt Disney sadly is no longer with us, in spirit yes so it's left to a new generation of imagineers and executives to run the company now, and they will have new ideas of how things should be done, and there's no way round that. It doesn't say much for Walt Disney if he was very disinterested in the MK when designing WDW, you make the same criticism of the WDC today. I'm quite happy to have wood carvers (which we could probably find at a craft fair) in Frontierland if DLP want them, and shows at the Lucky Nugget Saloon, but I don't have trouble with Toons as such because I think people want to see the characters, and they won't find them anywhere else other than in a Disney park. It was Walt Disney who introduced characters into his park in the first place. WDC have built on Walt's great legacy, so we have more parks and more characters. Disney can't keep repeating Subs and Mine Trains through Natures Wonderland, and yet they still came up with DAK and Expedition Everest. Sometimes they might want to try something else even if the idea does come from a film.

[Scissorsboi]

I think that there's a real dislike for toons outside of Fantasyland at the parks, that was the place where you could step into the world of the movies you loved and meet the characters. It was an experience purely for that land. Tomorrowland was to show people the world of tomorrow, Adventureland tied into his toonless True Life Adventures series, Frontierland told stories of old and the West.

Each land was originally designed to have a unique experience, toons were the unique part of Fantasyland, and to have them bleed slowly into other areas of the park kind of dilutes the charm of the other Lands. The exceptions to this would be the Fab 5 who have always appeared in themed variations in each land, but aside from those, the areas were more focused on theme, and not toons. That escapism attracted people to the parks, and it's purely down to bad (easy route) marketing which has swung the park's attraction over to the toons.

The approach I take is to think about the experiences you'd like, and I always come up with the thought; "surely you can't argue that you'd rather take a ride through a story you already know, over exploring a new and fantastic experience where things are surprises and you don't know what the ending will be?"

Just my two cents..

[DLP-Photos.com]

I agree with much of what's been said so far...

What made me such a big fan of Disneyland (some might say obsessed with it :lol:) was the immersive experience that captured me when I first visited DLP in '94 - just 4 years old. I didn't dare to try many attractions, I was afraid of the characters and didn't understand a word of what was being said. But to this day I can still remember how I felt taken away to five different vacations all at one place. I visited the park every second year and as I grew older I became more and more aware of the amount of details put into the place - of course I hunted the autographs at one period, but what I remember now was how I explored Adventure Isle, Thunder Mesa and Critter Corral - I was absorbed into a new and unknown adventure at every corner. I might have taken a plush Pluto home but it is these memories that has given Disneyland a special place in my heart.

I've visited the last 3 years - not to appreciate the new character celebration - but to relive these moments and once again be captured by the true adventures that is around every corner - my top five attractions not being influenced by any movie (Pirates, BTM, PM, IASW and ToT). I will keep going back to experience this and I visit this forum every day to see of something like this comes up again - right now I am keeping a firm eye on the beautiful refurbishments in Paris and 2/3 of the expansion in Hong Kong.

Regarding the toons, as Scissorsboi mentioned Fantasyland has been the home to the toons - and I have always loved and do still love to get my character fix on Peter Pan or Snow White - this being one of the 5-6 different vacations I can get at one spot. I understand why characters are the easy way to get people to visit, but a park like Europa Park, which I understand is overtaking many of DLPs german guests, make new creations each year and they are forced to use their imagination to create new adventures. In the end it looks like this beats the Disney characters by the germans.

Every once in a while I read through my Imagineering book, visit websites and watch Disneyland documentaries to experience the work of some of the great minds that once were in control.

Regarding the future of our Disneyland Paris; I love the fact that the main part of this years budget is being used to refurbish some of the masterpieces in our park and I have hope, which might me very naive, that this is a sign that the people from the top has been made aware by the european threats and realize that Disney can outrun these parks at any time if the effort, creativity and perhaps most importantly bravery of former times will be brought back.

[ed-uk]

The Little Mermaid ride has just opened a DCA, and that seems to have gone down very well, that's taken from a toon film. World of Colour has been a huge success at DCA, that show mostly features Disney cartoon characters. Tarzan is back on in Frontierland at DLP, that shows got toons in it. Most people were sorry when the Lion King show closed in Discoveryland, that was based on a toon film. The Disney parades are full of toon characters. The Tree House comes from a film ( Walt's idea) Star Tours comes from a film. There's always been a mixture of rides. Opening a second park at DLP was brave, at least Europa Park has never done it, nor has any other theme park  done it in Europe. According to the TEA & AECOM report for 2010, WDS comes in at number 19 in the world with 4.5 million visitors doing better than Europa park at number 20 with flat attendence of 4.25, even if it is more popular with the Germans now.

[DLP-Photos.com]

Yes there has always been a mix - but lately all new things have to have toons attached in some way.. at least it seems like that..

The Little Mermaid ride looks great and it is a classic WDI dark ride. However, for me it belongs in Fantasyland and so I am happy that is placed there in WDW. World of Color has been succesful yes - I do not if it still is - but at least this also has some of the essences I mentioned - it is state-of-the-art use of the possibilities and creative.

Tarzan is back on and it is good, because it at least is top class entertainment. However, I would prefer to see more themed entertainment in stead (e.g. Lucky Nugget and I seem to remember something with cowboys on the rooftops of Thunder Mesa - correct me if I am wrong here). Regarding the Lion King; it was sad to see it go (again it was top class), but it never belonged in Videopolis - it did seem odd to go inside this Jules Verne inspired building and then see lions sitting in the restaurant and african rock work on the stage.

The parades: yeah, based on toons and more and more on personal interaction. For me the parades started by being a celebration of the magic of Disneys movies which didn't interfere with the atmosphere in Frontierland, Adventureland and Discoveryland. While stile not doing this, it now fails to do the first thing for me - it just seems like an advanced meet'n'greet opportunity. I have no problem with a good old parade and please do not think I want the characters completely out of the park.

The Tree House and Star Tours are inspired by movies - however not toons. The Tree House blends in and isn't recognized as being a "movie attraction" by many. Star Tours is inspired by movies but still succeeds in telling a whole new adventure. For me it still contradicts with the Jules Vernian theme of our Discoveryland however.

Correct it was brave to open a second park, but budgets were low and that has given us a park which still in some areas and up until recently completely lacked creativity, deep-thought stories and top class themening. (ToT and Hollywood Boulevard has done a lot of good things for WDS, but to me it still lacks the feeling and atmosphere of Disneyland Park)

[ed-uk]

You have to suspend disbelief  when you go into Disneyland Park, it is a Magic Kingdom after all, if you don't nothing will make sense.

[davewasbaloo]

Ed, Europa Park is huge compared to DLP, so no point opening a second gate. And it is not open year round like DLP either. Those must be considered as a point of comparison.

The tooning has actually turned me off of the parks, and it is a shame. I have been obsessed by the parks for 37 years nearly, and growing up in California, it was the idea of a cruise through a jungle, a flight into space, a trip to the old west or New Orleans that were always far more compelling. If it were all about characters, surely next year Blackpool would be in the top 20 as you can now meet Sponge Bob and Dora. Somehow, I think it will not be.

But Disney has taken a very dangerous road IMHO, and my 6 and 8 year olds both prefer Europa Park to DLP. I never thought that would happen. And they are the core demographic the parks seem to be aiming at.

[ed-uk]

But DLP isn't all about characters now. You can still take a flight into space, cruise through the jungle ( well not at DLP ) go on TOT, Phantom Manor, Pirates of the Caribbean. I think Disney want to create more synergy between their films and parks, no doubt, Is that a bad think? You don't like it. But if DLP built Little Mermaid would you baulk at the idea of going on it, or take the ride? It is a magic Kingdom, how realistic is it ment to be? I'd like Splash Mountain, but that's about toons-Song of the South. What Disneyland Park hasn't had for a long time is a new E-ticket attraction, maybe thats whats missing.