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[davewasbaloo]

Well again, popular media talk of DL being the first theme park, but there was Knott's Berry Farm that predates DL, as does Tivoli Gardens. And as my previous post states, the character thing really only started ruining the place in the last 10-15 years, 20 tops.

In that time, Disney has been competing with dozens of theme parks. If Disney is not careful, they will end up being compared to Gulliverland or Legoland as a place for kids. This critique used to be levied by folks who had never been, but now they are right, the place is being turned into kiddyland.

Hence the concerns raised in the article that started this debate. It is a worrying trend. I douby Disney parks would ever have the fan following they enjoy if it had started being about the toons.

[DutchBrit]

In that time, Disney has been competing with dozens of theme parks.

Exactly. So you focus on what makes you unique.

If Disney is not careful, they will end up being compared to Gulliverland or Legoland as a place for kids.

And some of us think that that's not the worst thing in the world. It's a matter of opinion again: I happen to think that kids SHOULD be the primary focus of theme parks. Which doesn't mean that adults can't enjoy them too, of course.

[davewasbaloo]

And some of us think that that's not the worst thing in the world. It's a matter of opinion again: I happen to think that kids SHOULD be the primary focus of theme parks. Which doesn't mean that adults can't enjoy them too, of course.

But that flies in the face of Walt's vision and philosphy:

"You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway". Walt Disney.

"To all who come to this happy place: Welcome. Disneyland is your land. Here age relives fond memories of the past, and here youth may savor the challenge and promise of the future. Disneyland is dedicated to the ideals, the dreams, and the hard facts that have created America; with the hope that it will be a source of joy and inspiration to all the world." Dedication of Disneyland, no mention of toons.

"I suppose my formula might be: dream, diversify and never miss an angle." WD - everything about tooning is the antithesis of diversity

"I do not make films primarily for children. I make them for the child in all of us, whether we be six or sixty. Call the child "innocence". The worst of us is not without innocence, although buried deeply it might be. In my work I try to reach and speak to that innocence, showing it the fun and joy of living; showing it that laughter is healthy; showing it that the human species, although happily ridiculous at times, is still reaching for the stars."

"I believe in being an innovator." Walt disney

"Fantasy, if it's really convincing, can't become dated, for the simple reason that it represents a flight into a dimension that lies beyond the reach of time."

"I have long felt that the way to keep children out of trouble is to keep them interested in things. Lecturing to children is no answer to delinquency. Preaching won't keep youngsters out of trouble, but keeping their minds occupied will."

"I think what I want Disneyland to be most of all is a happy place — a place where adults and children can experience together some of the wonders of life, of adventure, and feel better because of it."

all of these statements come from the creator of Disneyland. They are the inspiration for the parks, and all stand behind why I think it is terrible to think of theme parks as places for children. They should be places for all of us, to be enjoyed together. This is why I especially hate TSPL - attractions that are themed to appeal to little ones and are designed, in the case of RC Racer, to be ridden by older folks. This flies in the face of the inspiration of DL (as does something like Playhouse Disney too).

[davewasbaloo]

While people are entitled to their opinions, they should not be at the expense of knowing the origins and intent, the philosophy and ethos. I find it very upsetting that so many other places out Disney Disney because WDC have lost their way with a mandate by some of the "where's the best character meal" brigade.

Consider this, Disney parks have more than 100 million visitors through their gates every year around the globe. The character experiences only used to account for a very small part of their expereiences. The value of Disney used to be a diverse menu of offerings, like a buffet. Now, there are too many sweets and it is making us diabetic as a fan community. well it certainly makes me feel sick.

I used to like things like Peter Pan fine, but now, the thought of a rubber head expereience makes me very angry indeed, as it has poisoned the park expereience, like a cancer.

[mattboywonder]

TDS is the most incredible theme park on earth in my opinion - and without actually having Disney movie themed attractions

Hmmmm. Doesn't it strike that the whole point of having a Disney theme park is to have a park with a Disney theme? Otherwise logically what you have got is a park with some other sort of theme. Calling it Disney is then probably contravening trade descriptions.

I think the point is that is is designed/created by Disney.  I think its the "Disney difference" that makes TDS to incredible - brilliantly designed, imaginative unique attractions, jaw dropping appearance.  I don't think anybody else other than the Disney team would have come up with anything so loaded with "WOW" factor around every turn!

[DutchBrit]

But that flies in the face of Walt's vision and philosphy:

"You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway". Walt Disney.

Uh-huh. And Henry Ford thought that all cars should be black. Most things are not true forever. Different world, different needs.

[DedicatedToDLP(Steve)]

I think one of the problems is that Disney see other parks using film franchises to attract crowds and probably feel that to compete in the same advertising space they need to push their own big franchises. As much as we may hate it, the pull of Harry Potter is far greater to the new generation of potential visitors than the history and imagination of classic Disney Parks.

It's very hard to advertise things like It's A Small World, Big Thunder Mountain and Main ST USA to people who have no idea what they are. It is much easier and possibly/probably more effective to pull them in with brands they know such as those created by Pixar. However to do that you need those attractions in the parks in the first place. Once in the parks they will undoubtedly fall in love with the classic rides, as did my little boy with It's A Small World.

I don't think it's the fault Disney but a change in society's expectations and desires and if they don't hit those points of interest then they will fall behind those places that do. As long as they keep the classic rides and areas then they can offer the best of worlds, but in this day and age they can't rely solely on their roots to compete.

However, that said, it would be nice if new development had an equal measure of classic as they did film franchises, but it's probably very hard to get it past a board that you want to spend £x million on an attraction that has no mass marketing potential.

[DutchBrit]

I think the point is that is is designed/created by Disney.  I think its the "Disney difference" that makes TDS to incredible - brilliantly designed, imaginative unique attractions, jaw dropping appearance.  I don't think anybody else other than the Disney team would have come up with anything so loaded with "WOW" factor around every turn!

Right, so Disney ARE meeting these requirements? So what are we complaining about here? There are enough parks to specialise. Those that hate characters can go to TDS. Problem solved.

[davewasbaloo]

I think the point is that is is designed/created by Disney.  I think its the "Disney difference" that makes TDS to incredible - brilliantly designed, imaginative unique attractions, jaw dropping appearance.  I don't think anybody else other than the Disney team would have come up with anything so loaded with "WOW" factor around every turn!

Right, so Disney ARE meeting these requirements? So what are we complaining about here? There are enough parks to specialise. Those that hate characters can go to TDS. Problem solved.

Except it costs 10 times more to take my family to TDS. All Disney parks are born of the same ethos.

[davewasbaloo]

And I think you all forget. When DL opened, people thought it needed roller coasters and ferris wheels to compete. Because it was Disney, people expected toons around every corner. what people got was far better. Disney should be raising the bar, not pumping the toons.

[DutchBrit]

Except it costs 10 times more to take my family to TDS. All Disney parks are born of the same ethos.

But haven't you made a lot of fuss in the past about Disney being something you have to save up for? And it's a lot easier and cheaper for anyone to get to Japan now than it was for anyone not in the US to get to the original Disneyland when it opened.

[DutchBrit]

And I think you all forget. When DL opened, people thought it needed roller coasters and ferris wheels to compete. Because it was Disney, people expected toons around every corner. what people got was far better. Disney should be raising the bar, not pumping the toons.

Subjective. What you think of as raising the bar isn't necessarily what other people think it is, or what is really true....

[davewasbaloo]

There is a difference between saving up for a quality experience, and having to save up to go to another continent because of inconsistancy of delivery in product and service quality. Why should one need to fly 6000 miles (9000km) to get a quality Disney experience when there is one 360 miles (540km away). Especially when on open day, Euro Disney as was, had the finest Disney park on the planet.

Your arguement is as specious as one who says "If you don't like the PM, emigrate".

[davewasbaloo]

And I think you all forget. When DL opened, people thought it needed roller coasters and ferris wheels to compete. Because it was Disney, people expected toons around every corner. what people got was far better. Disney should be raising the bar, not pumping the toons.

Subjective. What you think of as raising the bar isn't necessarily what other people think it is, or what is really true....

My perspective is based on learning from over 60 years of a theme park industry in terms of what delivers, who has stayed in busines and not, IAAPA reports and other documented evidence. What is your persepctive based upon?

There is a reason there is no longer a Smurf park in Europe, or that the Flintstones theme area is no longer at Universal Studios Hollywood. These fads fade, quality endures. Otherwise, why are PotC and Big Thunder the most popular attractions in the Disney parks around the globe?

[DutchBrit]

There is a difference between saving up for a quality experience, and having to save up to go to another continent because of inconsistancy of delivery in product and service quality. Why should one need to fly 6000 miles (9000km) to get a quality Disney experience when there is one 360 miles (540km away). Especially when on open day, Euro Disney as was, had the finest Disney park on the planet.

Your arguement is as specious as one who says "If you don't like the PM, emigrate".

But it is unreasonable to expect that should Disney cater just for you by having exactly what you want in the park most convenient for you. If they have multiple parks and multiple users requirements, specialisation is a sensible option. If there is somewhere anywhere offering the Disney experience you particulary want, then that's better than it existing nowhere, surely? There are probably people in Japan who would prefer the American or European options.

Although I get the feeling that what you want is not so much a close park, but a time machine.