Original title: Disneyland Resort Paris - Current Financial Situation?
What's the current financial situation of the resort? As a Disneyland Paris fan, people often ask me how the resort is doing now? And, to be honest, I don't really know.
Disneyland Park itself is hugely popular, but surely the resort as a whole is still in debt. The question is, by how much? Are they slowly getting out of debt, or are they stuck with the same amount and not making any progress?
Is there an end in sight?
Disclaimer: I am not financial expert :wink:
In 2007 the current borrowings stood at 2004.4 Million Euros (So a little over 2 billion Euros)
There is also a set plan on how much will be payed back each year. The target is to reduce the debt to around 1.5 billion Euros after the 2012 fiscial year.
I think, the resort is doing fine financially, its just the huge levels of debt which aren't great.
I seem to remember reading that the plan is to have debt at zero in 2020-2030. (The loans for Disneyland Parc seem to mature in 2023 and the Studios loans mature a couple of years later)
The next Annual report should also be out within a month which will give a good idea about how the resort is performing financially. (21st October)
Further details can be found on the corporate website, under investor relations.
http://corporate.disneylandparis.com (http://corporate.disneylandparis.com)
There is also THIS (//http://corporate.disneylandparis.com/CORP/EN/Neutral/Images/uk-2007-extracts-from-the-2007-reference-document-debt-information.pdf) document which seems to have pretty comprehensive details on when loans will be paid back.
Thanks a lot for all that information. Wow.
What I don't understand is, Disney recently bought Marvel Entertainment for $4 billion. So why can't they acquire Euro Disney; buy the whole thing back and solve all of their debt problems? They really seem to have messed up priorities.
I think I've read somewhere that there are restrictions by the French government on how much Disney is allowed to hold on Euro Disney SCA. Maybe TWDC could acquire the 10% of Prince Alwaleed.
The whole structure of the company is very complicated and I really don't understand everything. Although TWDC holds approximately only 40% of Euro Disney SCA, every decission has to be approved by TWDC. Or am I wrong?
There is also a company called Euro Disney Associes SCA. Euro Disney SCA holds 82% and the remaining 18% are owned by two companies of TWDC. SO does this mean that TWDC owns more than 40% of the whole group?
Maybe someone on this forum can explain it? Thank you.
The thing is, haven't they been 2 billion Euros in debt for a long time? I'm sure that figure was the same 10 years ago. So have they really not made in progress in getting rid of that debt, in all this time?
When the debt is finally cleared, will Disneyland Paris suddenly be super rich, able to afford new attractions every year? Will they be able to afford to build rides like Expedition Everest and put on shows likes Fantasmic?
The way I see it is that it cost 2 billion to built the resort in 1992.
Things weren't great in the first 10 years so not much was paid off, then WDS came along and bumped the debt back up to 2 billion.
Of course, these are just guesses and estimations.
I would expect increased levels of investment once the debt is reduced significantly.
Okay. So in 10 to 20 years time, Disneyland Paris will finally be out of debt. That's a long time to wait.
I honestly don't think they will come out of their dept as stated in the 2020-2030 period. Around that time, DLRP's third gate will be built. I think they have learned from their WDS mistakes and built a decent full day third park. That, ofcourse, will cost a lot of money. Even though they have a huge dept, they are still able to built new rides (Tower of Terror, Crush's Coaster) and new lands (Toy Story Playland) which aren't cheap. Well, TSPL surely does look cheap, but money-wise isn't. :wink:
Does somebody know when Euro Disney SCA publishes the Annual Report? The financial year is already over, so it shouldn't take too long.
Last year it was released on the 21st of October.
2007 was on the 7th of November.
2006 was on the 6th of November.
2005 was on the 16th of November.
Anytime within the next month really.
Euro Disney SCA have finally updated their calendar:
http://corporate.disneylandparis.com/in ... ndex.xhtml (http://corporate.disneylandparis.com/investor-relations/financial-calendar/index.xhtml)
Annual Report is due on 12th November. I guess that's when Toy Story Playland finally gets confirmed? As a tiny, boring little footnote on the last page? That's their style. :wink:
Quote from: "Anthony"As a tiny, boring little footnote on the last page? That's their style. :wink:
That's all it deserves!!
I suppose if you had your way it'd be held back until the next annual general meeting, for Philippe Gas to utter under his breath right at the end, in a very "And... Andy's birthday party has been moved to today." style. "And in 2010 we're opening a new expansion called Toy Story Playland. NOW! Moving On!!"
I hope it's more than a brief mention though, we've yet to actually find out where on earth the money is coming from. It might be "carnival" rides, but it's not going to be cheap.
Do you think there is a small chance that Euro Disney SCA made a small profit despite the economical crisis? I really hope for them, but I don't think so.
There most probobly will be a small loss and extra dept incured by having to offer 40% discounts free meals and regular Merchandising Discounts during the year it may be even worse next year as the worst of the recession is over but employment most probobly will get worse next year before getting better in 2011 when there should be a return to profit.
Can be seeen now on the share pages http://corporate.disneylandparis.com/CO ... r-2009.pdf (http://corporate.disneylandparis.com/CORP/EN/Neutral/Images/uk-2009-11-12-euro-disney-sca-reports-annual-results-for-fiscal-year-2009.pdf)
I do see a certain irony in the statement "Throughout the year we balanced our promise of high quality Disney Entertainment experience for our guests whilemanaging costs" All I see are no major shows any more that made Disney what it is, and cheap rubbish replacing it but maybe thats just me..
Other than that there is some positive to be gleaned from the report, even in turbulent fiscal times..
Looks like Tiana is on her way to join the parade..
Interesting to look at the figures year on year:
* Attendance up by 100,000 people despite recession and MMP.
* Occupancy only slipped by 3.6% - however, they cite Spain as a significant factor in this - wouldn't the UK be a significant one?
* Revenue down by 7%, with costs down by 2.4% to reduce the impact.
* Operating loss of €63m
* Average spend per guest down by 4.5% and per room down by 4.8% - not surprising, but could show a bit more spent by some in a room than others - parents vs children?
* Hotels and Disney Village worst hit with drop of 7.9% - logical, as people will spend in the parks, but go to a cheaper hotel and eat somewhere less expensive.
* The figures would have been a lot better without the repayments of borrowing and the balance sheet hasn't been affected to a huge degree.
Overall, not too bad.
This could be much worse. I'm really sruprised at how 'good' our resorts holds up during these economic times. Increased attendance levels also confirms that MMP has a possitive effect on people and attract them to visit the resort. With no attractions added during this year, 'Mickey' was the only star.
I think we will welcome even more visitors next year with the opening of Toy Story Playland. I'm looking forward to see it for myself. Will go back in 2 weeks to experience the wonderful new Christmas events and shows.
It also amazes me that DLRP has 340 mil EUR in cash... Can they use all of that to built new rides, the convention centre, hotels and other stuff?
What amazes me is that TWDC are willing to let DLP carry on and on with the huge debt, treating it almost like a naughty child paying some of their pocket money after they broke a window :!: Surely they could clear some it :?:
There is also the line about cost-cutting if they don't meet financial objectives next year that worries me. They must know that they have made profit only after big investments (Space Mountain, 15th anniversary) and have cut back so much already.
Hopefully DLRP will continue to increase the attendance numbers over the next years.
TWDC also released the annual report. I think it is very interesting that DLRP is featured so heavily in the Parks & Resort Section of their annual report while HKDL isn't mentioned once.
http://corporate.disney.go.com/investor ... 009_q4.pdf (http://corporate.disney.go.com/investors/quarterly_earnings/2009_q4.pdf)
From what I see, the best news coming out of the report is that Attendance was a new record, I expected attendance to drop after the main 15th ended.
Looks like Mickey's Magical Party worked.
€25 million was spent on management and royalty fees to TWDC, this wasn't paid so has been converted into debt.
Good news that the debt scheduled to be paid, was paid.
Quote from: "Willow"Looks like Mickey's Magical Party worked.
Only as an advertising gimmick IMO.
My take is that the new attractions from the 15th are still having an effect. I think that rides get people in first time not half-baked stage shows but I could be wrong.
Quote from: "andrewuk"My take is that the new attractions from the 15th are still having an effect. I think that rides get people in first time not half-baked stage shows but I could be wrong.
Definitely, I agree this is still most likely a tail-off from the success of recent years.
In fact, look at the First Half report (//http://corporate.disneylandparis.com/CORP/EN/Neutral/Images/uk-2009-04-28-first-half-results-for-2009.pdf) and attendance was at 7.1m -
up 0.1m on 2008. So that 0.1 increase actually comes from the October-March period, right?
Therefore it's been completely, absolutely flat during the Mickey's Magical Party months so far, and even then I dare say they've only managed to keep it up thanks to these constant 20, 30 40% price cuts. They're running another 30% discount in the UK now, during their most most popular season! It's surely not healthy, in business terms.
Just to kick MMP further, I'd even suggest it's been a hindrance on their business. The adverts are tacky, the brochures don't show anything of the parks, the website is plain awful. They've had to slash prices just to get people interested. The regular prices just absolutely don't match what they're advertising.
But yeah, results aren't too bad given that there are still so many things about Euro Disney SCA that make you want to bang your head against the wall. They must be the only theme park on earth without a YouTube or Twitter account, for example. How much do they cost? Not 63 million euros...
I just hope that, if things continue this way, they look at
improving what they're doing rather than giving up and cutting costs. I know they need to do that in the short term, but only so far. Investing in a website that isn't crap and a marketing team that don't want to make everything look like a character-filled Disney Store catalogue would be a start.
Come out fighting, don't run around like headless chickens cancelling quality shows and giving people
annual passports for €1, for heaven's sake. Do they have the marketing manager of Netto working for them?
on the flip side without MMP would the figures have stayed at last years levels - you can spin anything :wink:
Quote from: "Anthony"Definitely, I agree this is still most likely a tail-off from the success of recent years.
In fact, look at the First Half report (//http://corporate.disneylandparis.com/CORP/EN/Neutral/Images/uk-2009-04-28-first-half-results-for-2009.pdf) and attendance was at 7.1m - up 0.1m on 2008. So that 0.1 increase actually comes from the October-March period, right?
Therefore it's been completely, absolutely flat during the Mickey's Magical Party months so far, and even then I dare say they've only managed to keep it up thanks to these constant 20, 30 40% price cuts. They're running another 30% discount in the UK now, during their most most popular season! It's surely not healthy, in business terms.
Just to kick MMP further, I'd even suggest it's been a hindrance on their business. The adverts are tacky, the brochures don't show anything of the parks, the website is plain awful. They've had to slash prices just to get people interested. The regular prices just absolutely don't match what they're advertising.
But yeah, results aren't too bad given that there are still so many things about Euro Disney SCA that make you want to bang your head against the wall. They must be the only theme park on earth without a YouTube or Twitter account, for example. How much do they cost? Not 63 million euros...
I just hope that, if things continue this way, they look at improving what they're doing rather than giving up and cutting costs. I know they need to do that in the short term, but only so far. Investing in a website that isn't crap and a marketing team that don't want to make everything look like a character-filled Disney Store catalogue would be a start.
Come out fighting, don't run around like headless chickens cancelling quality shows and giving people annual passports for €1, for heaven's sake. Do they have the marketing manager of Netto working for them?
So you rather would them to keep those expensive shows and come even more in dept then they allready are? Why is it that you are blaming MMP for the decrease in profit? You haven't heard about the economic crisis that is holding the entire world in it's grip? You actually have the illusion that people are not vissiting the resort because they think MMP is crap? Wake up! Consumers all over the world are spending less money on EVERYTHING. Not just vacation trips like Disneyland, they also cut there spendings on cars, furniture, houses, the whole package. Every single branche in the world is reporting decline in consumer spendings, but you blame MMP for the loss this year...
It's one thing to dislike a theme year, but to twist simple facts as the economic break down in order to blame something you personaly don't like is really very sad.
It would not have made any difference if they extended the 15th anniversary theme for yet another year (or have no theme year at all, for that matter), people would still spend less money in the resort then the year before. It's simple economics, IF you're willing to have an objective view on it.
I would bet that even IF Disneyland maintained there shows, or even built new attractions during this year, there would still be a loss, because consumers are much more carefull in spending their money regardless of what they are offered. This behaviour will remain present during the next year, so yes they'll have to stay with theme years without 'broadway-production shows' in order to make it 'new' and attract visitors.
If DLRP follows your 'recommendations' to go back to these expensive shows, extended operating hours and more cast members, they can close the gates forever. They have to act now, and that's just what they did. Keeping the loss to a minimum and reserving money to grow again when the economy is back on track and visitors are spending more money again. That's what every single company in the world is doing right now, including Disney.
Did you see the results for The Walt Disney Company as a whole this year? The entire Parks & Resorts Division reported a decline of 7% globally. I don't suppose you want to blame that too on 'crap theme years'?
EuroDisney has lost money from the get go in 1992. What has kept it going over the years is support from the French goverment, and more money being poured in to it by the WDC and shareholders. It's got nothing to do with MMP. EuroDisney has a huge mountain of debt to pay off. It's not a question of giving up, they have to pay it back. The company has come out fighting, they even built a second park against the odds. It marked a big turn around for the company that, I don't think some people realise. Ok they cut two shows in the summer Tarzan ( which was 10 years old anyway) and the Lion King. But over the last two years they've expanded the Studios with TOT, Crushes coaster and Stitch Live. I don't know what it is about EuroDisney that makes people want to bash their head against the wall. We've even got a shareholders club. Not even shareholders in the WDC have that. It has to be affordable for people to go to, which is why they have to discount in a recession. I think the results this year are down to the recession, not MMP.
Quote from: "Tuvok"You actually have the illusion that people are not vissiting the resort because they think MMP is crap? Wake up! Consumers all over the world are spending less money on EVERYTHING. Not just vacation trips like Disneyland, they also cut there spendings on cars, furniture, houses, the whole package. Every single branche in the world is reporting decline in consumer spendings, but you blame MMP for the loss this year...
Not quite, no. I
suggested it's been a "hindrance", and only then in terms of its advertising, the brochures... All I talked about was the advertising. You're right, people are looking twice at everything they're spending. So they came to thinking about going to DLP, saw these ads, and surely some just thought "we can miss this year", didn't they? The garish and tacky brochures bear no relation to the package prices they charge in my view. DLP is a wonderful, beautiful place, but they often just don't show that to people.
Go and look at a brochure for Walt Disney World, see how they present themselves, and then tell me which you think joe public would consider "worth the money".
Stick a supermarket label on a pair of designer boots and people just won't pay.
Quote from: "Tuvok"If DLRP follows your 'recommendations' to go back to these expensive shows, extended operating hours and more cast members, they can close the gates forever.
Who are you replying to now? I didn't mention two of those and certainly didn't "recommend" the other.
Cancelling the "quality" shows. On one hand, we've seen costs cut with Tarzan and Lion King, which should actually never have been at the tiny Videopolis Theatre to start with (awful cost to benefit ratio). On the other, they've had 4 performances a day of "Party Time" with that huge cast of 40 and another 5 performances of the rather bad "Dance Time". So why was the universally popular Tarzan cancelled, only for them to then spend money on the new Goofy's Summer Camp, which played to half-full audiences?
Quote from: "Tuvok"I don't suppose you want to blame that too on 'crap theme years'?
Can you stop putting words into my mouth? I didn't blame the loss on anything actually, just posted a few suggestions about where they could look to improve business, where they might actually be setting themselves back.
Thanks for completely misreading and/or twisting around an objective post.
TBH looking at the WDW forums the mere idea of them loosing those horrible Lights of Winter (ugly in daylight, blocking a classic view at night) seems to be causing some anger.
There are numerous threads regarding TWDC cutting costs and not spending on rides in Florida whilst all the money is going into the CA refit.. So I suppose we can count are selves lucky that we are actually getting a new area in the studios, the rides may be a bit naff but hopefully the theming will be nice, intact and lead the way for a dark ride addition..
On the up side I do think the Studios needed more rides. When the park first opened they only had two rides there, Rock n Roller Coaster and the Flying Carpets, the rest was shows, and not much suitable for very young children. I think Disney have tried to address this issue with Toy Story Playland. Not to mention TOT and Crushes Coaster which are suitable for adult. And yes, I think Disney are having to make cuts and do discounting at their resorts in America at the moment, it's not just EuroDisney doing it. They're not closing a park two days a week, or a hotel in the winter, or Frontierland on a Monday and Tuesday to save money, that would be bad.
On a positive side if the debt can be maintained at its current level in the worst economic situation the resort has ever found itself in then surely this is quite a good thing, with the European economies due to grow further next year then fingers crossed there will be a good debt reduction and a headline profit figure =D>
Quote from: "Anthony"Go and look at a brochure for Walt Disney World, see how they present themselves, and then tell me which you think joe public would consider "worth the money".
100% agree. I thought the next new brochure only can get better. But unfortunatley I was wrong. Its a cheap photoshop work with nearly NO real pictures of our beautiful resort. Do they really think that attracts new guests?
Quote from: "ed-uk"The company has come out fighting, they even built a second park against the odds.
It wasn´t their free decision to built the second gate. It was part of their agreement with the french government. They had no choice.
Quote from: "Tuvok"You haven't heard about the economic crisis that is holding the entire world in it's grip? You actually have the illusion that people are not vissiting the resort because they think MMP is crap? Wake up! Consumers all over the world are spending less money on EVERYTHING.
Oh come on. You don´t really want to put the blame on the economic crisis.
I don´t want to start a global discussion about our world wide economy. But if you take this argument, please inform yourself before. It annoys me, that so many people everywhere jump on that "Argument-Train". Its an so easy to take argument. But If you would catch up with this issue a bit closer, you would see that this crisis is bad, indeed. BUT, more than 60 % of all enterprises, that blame this crises for their loss, had a bad financial situation even before!!!
DLP had these big losses before, too! Its not a result of a economic crisis. Even if it is a more than welcome excuse for the management.
Lets have a look at other theme parks...
Europa-Park - had a record attendance this year.
Phantasialand - had a record attendance this year.
DLP had a record attendance.
So again... economic crisis? :roll: People spend money!!!
DLP has to give their guests the possibiliy to spend money? Does anyone remember the huge selection of merchandising, they once had? If I compare this to the selection they now have, it doesn´t wonder me!
Nearly every shop has the same products! Disney Village, Emporium, Hotel-Shops... its all the same! Best example: Snowglobes. They haven´t released new ones the last 1,5 years???!!!!
In former years you had merchandise that fits perfectly in the theme of each land. Now, every shop offers nearly the same. No wonder, people spend less.
Europa Park and Phantasialand are less reliant upon international visitors though.
Many UK parks have had record attendances as well this year, due to more people staying in their own country.
Disney made a profit last year (if I remember rightly) so if all was normal they should have either made a profit or only a small loss this year.
Quote from: "Willow"Europa Park and Phantasialand are less reliant upon international visitors though.
Oh no. More than half of the visitors of Europa-Park are international-guests. In their acutal press release they even say, they could increase the attendance of international guests.
Phanatsialand guests are about 30% international visitors.
So I still think, the economic crisis has not the primary debt.
Quote from: "MagicStar"Quote from: "Willow"Europa Park and Phantasialand are less reliant upon international visitors though.
Oh no. More than half of the visitors of Europa-Park are international-guests.
...which isn't that hard considering the park is right next to the French border and less than an hour away from Switzerland. :wink:
Quote from: "Anthony"Can you stop putting words into my mouth? I didn't blame the loss on anything actually, just posted a few suggestions about where they could look to improve business, where they might actually be setting themselves back.
Thanks for completely misreading and/or twisting around an objective post.
Agreed, Anthony, you're right. I was reading multiple topics when I made this post and reacted on all of them in this particular post. The second part was meant more in general and not for you personally. :oops:
Quote from: "Tuvok"Agreed, Anthony, you're right. I was reading multiple topics when I made this post and reacted on all of them in this particular post. The second part was meant more in general and not for you personally. :oops:
Ok, phew. :)
I did hope I was being more objective than that. Also need to clarify for anyone reading that no, a Twitter account would not solve a €63m loss, but it interests/confuses me why DLP are so reluctant to... this probably isn't the right choice of words... "put themselves out there" like that. For example right now they're running this 30% discount offer - it'd make sense to email everyone on their mailing list wouldn't it? I've hardly seen the offer advertised, so they're maybe only saving people 30% who would have booked anyway.
On a completely other topic, the journalist who contacted me a few weeks ago raised something worth thinking about in an email, hopefully he won't mind me quoting:
"What I cannot understand is why the park does not resurrect and fast track the Lava Lagoon project or an equivalent since it would be a relatively cheap ($50m-100m) way of extending the length of stay at the resort from 2/3 days to at least 4. It would also generate a profit in itself due to the lower construction cost being lower than a park."
Which is an excellent point. Although it'd probably cost much more than $100m. With the benefit of hindsight, and ignoring the government agreement, they should have opened a water park in 2002 and continued to add to Disneyland Park. Unfortunately now I suppose it's probably unlikely to happen until the Convention Centre is done?
Quote from: "Anthony"On a completely other topic, the journalist who contacted me a few weeks ago raised something worth thinking about in an email, hopefully he won't mind me quoting:
"What I cannot understand is why the park does not resurrect and fast track the Lava Lagoon project or an equivalent since it would be a relatively cheap ($50m-100m) way of extending the length of stay at the resort from 2/3 days to at least 4. It would also generate a profit in itself due to the lower construction cost being lower than a park."
Which is an excellent point. Although it'd probably cost much more than $100m. With the benefit of hindsight, and ignoring the government agreement, they should have opened a water park in 2002 and continued to add to Disneyland Park. Unfortunately now I suppose it's probably unlikely to happen until the Convention Centre is done?
Yes, that is indeed an excellent point. Although I'm personally not a fan of waterparcs, it should extend the visist of lots of people, especially families. Every extra day that people are in the resort, they will spend additional money.
On the other hand, I think the Convention Centre will also generate a lot of money from businesses and congresses. I would vote for the Convention Centre, because maybe, just maybe, we will get our own D23 Expo in the future. How amazing that would be!
Disney could economise much better than they do currently, Lava Lagoon could be done for the same cost as TOT, yet have a bigger impact upon the resort.
(Sorry for mentioning Alton Towers again but...) Look at the interest Alton Towers' FREE Facebook and Flickr accounts have generated for their new ride, their FREE Twitter account generates some advertising as well.
They also send e-mails out to everyone on their mailing list every month or so advertsing the latest offers and whats going on at the moment.
All of those things are either free, or at a small cost.
Quote from: "Willow"Disney could economise much better than they do currently, Lava Lagoon could be done for the same cost as TOT, yet have a bigger impact upon the resort.
(Sorry for mentioning Alton Towers again but...) Look at the interest Alton Towers' FREE Facebook and Flickr accounts have generated for their new ride, their FREE Twitter account generates some advertising as well.
They also send e-mails out to everyone on their mailing list every month or so advertsing the latest offers and whats going on at the moment.
All of those things are either free, or at a small cost.
DLRP does that too. As an annual passholder and shareholder I receive emails, flyers and magazines (some of them monthly) with information from all around the resort. From the latest discounts, to the next theme years, rides, shows and financial reports, etc.
Maybe Alton Towers does al those things for free to all guest, not just the annual passholders? I can't comment on receiving mailings from DLRP as 'regular guest' or if that's even possible.
But I agree. DLRP should have their own blogs, youtube accounts, etc. Just to keep in the loop of the online community. The Disney Parks Blog for the US resorts is realy great!
Shareholders and Annual Pass holders are just a small amount of the 15 million+ people who visit the resort.
Things like those e-mails should be going out to everyone who has ever stayed or even enquired about the resort.
Alton Towers' mailing list is basically anyone who has ever bought a ticket online, or stayed at the hotels. (Plus the people who have signed up on the website).
They also have 133,271 fans on Facebook.
This is from a resort approximately 1/5th the size of DLRP.
Also, alongside a much more user-friendly website DLRP could seriously increase their online presence at a minimal cost.
Quote from: "MagicStar"Europa-Park - had a record attendance this year.
Phantasialand - had a record attendance this year.
DLP had a record attendance.
So again... economic crisis? :roll: People spend money!!!
Whilst I agree in principle to your argument that its easy for companies to hide behind the flag of an economic crisis etc etc..Your rather simplyfying the issue out of context..
It doesn't really matter if your guest input is up - it can be up 100% but the major problem for all companies at the moment even if you take share price out of the equation is that your rolling investment capital on your income per quarter is not reaching its expected earnings , this is a huge problem..