As you probably know, The Walt Disney Company is putting its themepark business on a third leg, the Avatar franchise. The other ones of course being the Disney universe and Star Wars.
Disney acted after the huge success of Harry Potter which saw Universal Studios in Orlando double their attendance within three years.
Check this out (I know its not Disney)
Disney decided to add Avatar to its Animal Kingdom park in Orlando, which needed an update anyway.
And the result is just spectacular. This is probably the best work Disney imagineers have ever done in any Disney park. To recreate the special atmosphere of Planet Pandora turned out to be quite difficult but I believe its been worth the effort.
See for yourself
Wow!!!!
You may have heard that Disney now has sole ownership of Disneyland Paris and that the Walt Disney Company has earmarked a substantial amount of cash to enhance the Paris facility.
My friend Jim in Orlando, who I talked to last night, is well connected with the Disney community there and he tells me he heard rumours that some of the Avatar magic could be brought to Paris.
That would just be a fantastic add-on to the park and well worth the investment. It would also draw huge crowds as the Avatar franchise will soon be in Theaters with release 2, 3 and 4 of the movies.
I am putting this in the rumour department as I have been unable to verify this with anybody at Disney. If nothing else it may entice a few readers to visit Animal Kingdom in Orlando and check out the place themselves.
Getting Avatar and more of Star Wars to Paris would however make sense as the park needs new ideas and rides, even if that means knocking down existing stuff.
No more Star Wars please!!!
I wasn't aware that TWDC had earmarked any additional funds for DLP.
Star Wars in the Studios maybe, but it doesn't belong in Parc Disney.
Never seen Avatar. Not interested in anything Avatar.
I don't think we'll see more Avatar anywhere. The deal to create an Avatar land was made prior to Disney buying Marvel and Star Wars to combat the announcement of Harry Potter at Universal Studios.
Now that Disney own Marvel and Star Wars, I imagine they'll focus on them and we will never see Avatar outside of the Animal Kingdom. It would make zero sense for them to do Avatar elsewhere (financial reasons, lack of ownership) and I imagine the Avatar deal would never have been made if it was post Disney buying Star Wars and Marvel.
Not even remotely interested in Avatar, Star Wars whilst enjoyable has definitely got its fair share already.
I'd take the Star Wars Land coming to both American parks over Avatar any day. Both of the new Star Wars rides sound like they're going to be amazing!
To the reader who asked about Disney planning to invest substantially into DLP...
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-euro-disney-20170210-story.html
The way I see it, there are a few barriers to a Parisian Pandora. A few have already been idendified above.
The obvious one.. cost. Re-creating that as a stand alone project is going to be pricey. The timing is way off, but if they could have done it as a join project (just as Star Wars Galaxy's Edge is), that could have eased the fiscal demand on Paris' coffers. However, maybe Hong Kong could be a potential future partner on it?
There's also the considerations that they would more than likely be paying a licence fee for the use of the characers. Something that they all of a sudden seem adverse too. (see. Twilight Zone, The Great Movie Ride, CineMagique).
Although the negotiations for LucasFilm, and probably Marvel, were in early stages at the time, I think that the rights to Avatar were snapped up as a back-up plan. In part to ensure that WDW had a "Potter Swatter" just in case George decided to keep hold of the Skywalker saga.
Adding to that point, they own both Star Wars and Marvel, both of which would probably rate higher than Avatar on guests brand recognition. In other words, why shell out €1bn on an admitted great land, which could be argued bring in less guests than SWGE or a Marvel Land.
Next problem. Just where would you put it? Pandora does, at a push, fit into the Animal Kingdom overall theme. It'd be a no-go for Parc Disneyland, leaving the Studios - which you could just about get away with.
Now, I'm not going to dismiss this out of hand. Pandora is an amazing looking land, that would certainly be most welcome to DLP.
OK, its only got two attractions, but the Flight of Passage would be a worthy additon in its own right. I note that you quoted 'Jim' as saying "some of the Avatar magic" - maybe that doesn't mean Pandora in it's entirety?
Whilst the Studios seems like the only option, what if there was another? Why not hold off on Pandora and add it to a third park?
OK, we're no where near having that now, but what if a bigger Pandora was a prospect? Not just the two DAK attractions, but a third Paris exclusive.
I don't know what form a that park would take, you'd need something else to offer, but what if it was Pandora and SWGE in one park? Call it Disney's Space Port or something.
So, whilst I don't see it happning right now, who knows, maybe by the end of the next decade we might just be counting down to the grand opening. :)
From an investment pov Marvel and Star Wars are safer bets. Also potentially something Frozen based. Avatar seems like a poor bet to me even with the new films coming. I just can't see them being that popular especially considering the main reason people went to see the first film was not for the film but for the novelty of the 3D (which has long since worn off).
I'd much rather have more Star Wars and Marvel. While Pandora looks great, you have to think that, if Disney had purchased Star Wars earlier, Pandora would have never happened - especially since the 300 sequels keep getting pushed back. Avatar isn't Disney's IP, and There has to be some regret that they even built it. I would have also preferred the originally planned Beastly Kingdom in Animal Kingdom.
Quote from: Greg on July 22, 2017, 09:53:32 AM
I'd much rather have more Star Wars and Marvel.
NO, NO NO!!! Why can't we have more DISNEY in Disneyland??? I'm sorry, I know that an awful lot of people love these movies (I am myself a huge Star Wars fan) and I appreciate Disney now own them but Disneyland should concentrate on Disney as far as I am concerned. They have a wonderful library of movies that they could make attractions out of... some that the other parks around the world have but DLP does not. Personally I would love to see some of those before Avatar or anything else.
Sorry for the negativity!!
TTFN
Of course, we'd love more Disney, but Star Wars and Indiana Jones have been present in the parks since 1989. It's nothing new. Let's stop pretending Disney Parks have always been full of original non-IP rides and shows.
If we're talking about the 'legs' of new disney franchising, I think that Marvel would be the one they brought into DLP.
They have already officialy announced an overhaul of Hotel New York to turn it into the Art of Marvel, and Spider man currently has a meet and greet location, so logically I think that an update to the studios involving Marvel would be the next step.
MUCH better choice over all, we have alot of star wars already, and TBH, although it is VERY impressive and has drawn in alot of crowds, I think Avatar was a poor choice for Disney to pick up as it was a luke warm scifi version of Pocahontas at best.
I imagine we'll get a Guardians of the Galaxy mission at some point, since their aim is to have different missions around the world.
Avatar isn't even Disney so no it does not belong at any Disney park. It doesn't even belong in Animal Kingdom!! :-\ They have a wide range of Disney movies they need to do more with them!
There are quite a few things that 'aren't Disney'. Avatar is nothing new.
Besides the obvious LucasFilm and Marvel characters, there have been apperances by the Ninja Turtles, Ace Ventura, the Goosebumps characters and the Power Rangers (owned by the company at the time). Not to mention Disney adapatations of The Rocketeer and Dick Tracey, with the latter being very close to having an attraction in Disneyland and DHS.
So it's nothing new. However, given that the seem to be moving away from outside-IP usage, I do think Pandora could be a long shot for Paris.
I don't know if the Avatar licence is a single park deal or if it is just "theme park rights", if its for multiple locations you could then argue that they have the rights for so many years, why not use it?
I don't think that there is any chance that all of Pandora would be copied from the US facility. Most of you probably know that the Star Wars ride is actually based on a Boeing 747 simulator and the same technology seems to be used in the Flight ride used in Avatar. It would certainly be possible to bring such a ride to the Studios in Paris at acceptable cost as the same ride could be themed differently once the Avatar hype dies down when all the movies are released.
In the meantime Disney could benefit from Avatar as this ride could be implemented without any RD cost, given that it would be a carbon copy of the US ride. Of course there is the licensing and royalty question.
Regarding Marvel, does anybody know if the Spiderman ride from Universal Studios will ever come to a Disney park?
After all now that Disney owns Marvel, and thus the right to the Spiderman universe, wouldn't it be logical to profit from this ride's great success. Yes, it's a few years old but I still believe that it's actually one of the best rides at Universal Studios Florida. The ride requires wearing 3D glasses. That's why in this clip, the 3D parts are out of focus.
Regarding Star Wars at Disneyland Paris, come one Disney you can do so much better than just the soldiers parade / ballet which we currently witness. Yes I know there is the Star Wars simulator ride at Disneyland (R) Paris. It doesn't do the franchise justice, there is so much more potential. I know the park is cash strapped but here's an idea... team up with Sony and Microsoft and have them bring a few PS4 and Xboxes with the latest Star Wars games into the park, set up a tent with bring screen TVs and let the kids have some fun. Or install a few of the Starwars arcade games that are at Disney Quest in Orlando. I personally can't get enough of Starwars and would love to see a few characters from that universe in the Studios as well.
I know that this idea may not sit well with many here in the Forum but I believe that Disney needs to build partnerships with major corporations and bring them into the facility as paying sponsors just like Mike Eisner and Frank Wells did in the US. In fact all of Epcot is built on that concept. Why not do the same in Paris.
I understand the frustration of the one reader who says that more Disney is needed in Disneyland as well and I agree. I can't understand why the hugely popular Ariel character and her greeting Pavilion hasn't been brought to Paris. That would be so much fun for the kids and it would virtually cost peanuts to set it up.
Fantasyland has been revamped completely in Orlando and the dwarf's mine ride is quite sensational
Compare that with the little boat ride in Paris. Every attraction has its fans and I'm sure that that ride has loyal patrons as well. But is that really up to Disney standards? Same goes for the Circus train ride. Those are attractions I expect to find in my local neighborhood park. And there's your room to put a new ride into Fantasyland.
Other than that, I don't think it would be possible to bring the Jungle cruise to Paris because that takes up a huge amount of space. Same goes for Splash Mountain. I just don't see where they could put it.
Generally speaking having just started to visit Paris, I feel that the facility is overdue for a major overhaul and that there should be more and more innovative rides now that Disney has no excuse for not investing into Paris.
In a way, the Paris facility is where Florida was 25 years ago, less a few major rides. That's fine if the park is only meant to be drawing crowds from Europe but there's a drawback to that. Brexit will make it more costly for the Brits to come to Europe and with lowcost transatlantic flights now about to become available, why should they come to Paris when they could just as easily go to Florida. EuroDisney is dead, vive Disneyland (R) Paris. But what sets DLP apart from all the other parks? What's special about it, why would the worldwide Disney fan base consider a detour to Paris?
Right now, the only thing that comes to mind is Hyperspace Mountain. But that's not enough.
I'm going off thread here but hopefully this is of interest as well.
When Disney first introduced Soarin' at the Garden pavilion at Epcot, it was branded as a fabulous innovation and it became one of the leading attractions in the park with an average waiting time of over two hours.
Why does Disney allow one of its major competitors in an important European market (Europapark in Germany) to outshine them with Voletarium which to me is a carbon copy of Soarin' on a different set.
Here's an early promo video from Europapark. The ride is now open. It's crazy, even the flying theater looks exactly the same than the one at Disney's Soarin'
Disney has shown what can be done by turning Space Mountain into Hyperspace Mountain, a fantastic ride and hopefully we'll see major improvements of that kind. But we also need brand-new rides. It was Disney's "birthright" to bring Soarin' to Paris, rather than letting that brilliant ride go to a German park.
Of course I know that the park has operated near a financial abyss for so may years but now its Disney 100%. Disney is hugely profitable. There is no excuse not to further develop and enhance the Paris resort.
Somebody mentioned Frozen. Just as with Ariel, why not have a greeting pavilion with some of the Frozen characters somewhere at Disneyland Paris or better yet a new ride as well. In Orlando the beloved Norwegian ride was just transformed into Frozen. Heck, where's the creativity in Paris?
I know, the park is losing money. But when you're Disney that's no excuse.
Getting back to Avatar, yes I do believe that the Flight ride would make sense at Paris as well for a few years at least, given that the new Avatar movies will be released soon. As to needed real espace to build that ride, there is a huge area in front of the Star Wars stage. Build something there. But then again, it may just be a rumour out of Orlando.
Quote from: ccsvideo on July 24, 2017, 09:16:58 AM
I know, the park is losing money. But when you're Disney that's no excuse.
I'm not convinced the park is/was losing money. It made an operating profit, but that was wiped out by loan and IP repayments - mostly to TWDC.
It's a bit like the Starbucks / Google / etc. method of (not) paying tax or shareholders dividends.
Not sure about licensing. I think Disney voided the licensing dues for a few years to keep EuroDisney afloat (update - they voided two years of licensing and management fees after they were taken to court by Hedge Fund CIAM). I'll do some more research into this but it makes sense to me. If you're a franchisee and you fail, the licensing company will let you go under without worrying too much, but if you have the Disney name on your door, then that just can't happen. It would hurt the brand-name too much worldwide.
http://jimhillmedia.com/editor_in_chief1/b/jim_hill/archive/2012/09/09/barack-obama-amp-joe-biden-came-to-new-hampshire-and-i-got-was-this-horrible-sunburn.aspx
from that site:
-> begin quote
... Anyway ... During our 20 minute-long talk, he and I covered an awful lot of Disney-related turf. And eventually the topic of the then-still-struggling Parisian theme park and resort campaign. And Roy (Disney) (as you might expect) laid the failure of that project right at Michael Eisner's feet....
<- end quote
Disney had to inject emergency cash of over a billion Dollars into Disneyland Paris in 2014.
http://variety.com/2014/biz/news/disney-sets-1-25-billion-bailout-plan-for-disneyland-paris-1201322300/
Disney has been substantially hurt by the EuroDisney financial disaster. Some of my contacts in the Walt Disney Company claim that the funds that went into EuroDisney should have gone into improvements and additions at the other parks.
I know that there has been this rumor in France that Disney has been sucking EuroDisney dry with licensing and management fees but I doubt that was the case in the last few years, especially after the CIAM lawsuit.
I completely understand that EuroDisney shareholders were upset with the 2 Euros per share offer and the subsequent squeeze out, but by all normal accounting measures that was a generous offer given the huge operational loss in 2016 and the huge debt the resort is settled with right now.
Fortunately that all disappears in the overall balance sheet of the Walt Disney Company now and there is room for new life at the Paris facility. But shareholders are watching closely where we go from here and Disneyland Paris needs to do much better quickly or Mike Eisner will not have been the only one who's career was impacted by EuroDisney / Disneyland Paris.
Whenever Disney invested into new rides and attractions, it paid off.. in all the parks. They should do that in Paris as well.
Here's an update on the question of licensing and management fees.
from
http://www.cityam.com/266635/taking-mickey-mouse-walt-disney-co-delists-euro-disney
-> begin quote
The French business (EuroDisney aka DLP) was still indebted by almost €1.2bn at the end of March this year.
Yet figures emerged in December revealing that Walt Disney had charged its Parisian offspring nearly €1bn in licensing fees over the past decade.
Hedge fund CIAM, which owned a small minority stake, launched an ongoing lawsuit to challenge the fees.
Perhaps prompted by the disgruntled shareholders, Walt Disney Co. agreed to waive two years' worth of royalties and management fees at the end of last year to provide extra liquidity.
-> end quote
In other news, I also read that the Walt Disney Company had agreed to have payment of loans it provided to EuroDisney / DLP postponed until 2024. Of course that's now history as well.
Quote from: petals on July 23, 2017, 03:04:46 AM
Avatar isn't even Disney so no it does not belong at any Disney park. It doesn't even belong in Animal Kingdom!! :-\ They have a wide range of Disney movies they need to do more with them!
And Star Wars and Marvel are Disney?!
Yes. WDC bought Lucasfilm (Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Etc) and Marvel several years ago.
It was once mentioned Avatar would come to WDS if it was to be a success in AK, but that was prior the new strategy of the use of Disneys' own IP's. The first priority for DLP is to fix the WDS with an enhanced Hollywoodstreet (killing Art of Animation for F&B and gifts) and replacing backlot with Marvel. This last one started with replacing Cinémagique with a Marvel show. Next phase should be the replacing of Armageddon (meet and greet??) and Disney Junior Live (said to start in 2018). Followed by RnRC (Spider-Man or GotG layover) and Moteurs. Completed by a new Marvel e-ticket around 2022-2024. No ToT replacement with GotG; mission breakout is planned (for now). This plan is basically not changed since WDC bought the final shares. So based on existing budgets and strategy.
Also a Star Wars Galaxy Edge is being considered / planned for either WDS or behind Discoveryland. First plans are several years old as an article on Disney & More described this in one of his blogs. In short; Star Tours 2 has been done as well as the transformation of Start Traders into a meet & Greet, a new gift shop and a temporarely Jedi Academy (another show for this stage is said to be in planning). But once there were more plans for this area. The Discoveryland theatre would host a more permanent version of the Jedi Academy. Beside the theatre there would be a walk through replica of the Millenium Falcon and a canteena restaurant. Next to Star Tours - on the spot once envisioned for Toon Town - there would rise an e-ticket. But these are plans from the past. They chose to do the obvious and do a last minute Hyperspace Mountain (the return of de la terre de la lune was soooo close :( ).
I think they are testing the Star Wars brand with the new season of the force and Hyperspace Mountain. If succesfull....
Apparently 'Uncle' Bob hinted in a recent interview that there could be more Avatarlands added to other resorts in the World. This doesn't mean it's a definate go for DLP, but then I wouldn't completely rule it out.
It could mean WDS, or a part of a third park, or even not Paris at all. Maybe Hong Kong or even Shanghai.
No way is Avatar coming to WDS. The 'secret' plans are pretty widely known to be turning the left hand side of the Studios into a Marvel area. Armageddon, Art of Animation and Disney Junior are the next to be converted after the former Cinemagique is finished.
The right hand side is basically a Pixar land at the moment which they can basically leave as is apart from cosmetic touches and that only leaves ToT and the tram tour. Nothing really needs doing to ToT as it's a great version of the attraction and has found further use now as a backdrop for the projection shows. Tram tour desperately needs work but it seems to be lower on the priority list right now.
The Christmas offerings and the Season of the Force shows that DLP are serious about sorting WDS out imo.
As for the main park, I think SW land attached to Discoveryland would be outstanding and would allow SM to return to its former themeing. Nothing SW they've put in can't be easily removed. The new trains are noticeably steampunk in style which does make me think this overlay was always meant to be a stop gap. There are rumours that both Snow White and Pinocchio will go to be replaced by essentially a large Princess Pavilion. Whilst they're both very outdated now it seems a pity to lose two rides. I'd rather see the Frozen ride there instead.
Well I don't take the comments to mean its actually happening, nor that it would definately be for WDS. It was more of a hint that it could be added anywhere.
As of right now, Paris has much a chance as the other three resorts of getting it - based only on the fact that it was a vauge comment.
I still don't see the Na'vi setting up camp in Paris - or if they do, they've got to wait for Marvel and Star Wars to get done first.
Although this project still seems unlikely, there's an announcement due Thursday that could effect this.
How? Disney is set to buy 21st Century Fox. And potentially one of the things it aquires is Avatar.
This doesn't mean that it will automatically happen, but it makes it a little easier to duplicate Pandora:The World of Avatar if they want (as they would own the IP).
well this seems like a likely thing to happen, it seems like the studios has the potential to be over crowded with rides now
1 month ago i would of said its unlikely that we would see pandora at WDS now it seems like an inevitability
I still consider it very unlikely. Even with the new films coming out Avatar isn't a big franchise - the main reason the first film did so well was the novelty of the 3D, not the quality of the film itself.
Disney owns far bigger franchises that would prove a better draw - why would you choose Avatar when you have Marvel and Star Wars?
^I agree, out of the three franchises you mention, Avatar is the least likely to be a draw. Sure there will be hype for Avatar 2 when it finally gets made, but that will be in part due to it being the sequel to the over hyped first film.
Surely there's not enough room for more than one franshise-land in WDS either, so that option is out of the window also.
Here's a curveball though... what if something from Pandora does make it to the Studios? The Flight of Passage tech could surely be adapted to another theme? Just which, that's the question.
We went to Orlando this year for the first time and i would love it if Pandora came to Paris....
We loved everything about Orlando and loved all the parks , (MK was a bit of a let down though, nowhere near as beautiful as DLP)..We went to WDW , Universal and Sea world but Pandora was something else , the whole area was fantastic ,both rides the restaurant everything , it was breathtaking...The flight of passage ride was the best thing about it though ...I literally came off it speechless , it was amazing ,words cannot describe it.....My 11 year old nephew has never seen the film and again it was his favourite thing and he went on every ride there..
Heard it a few times, but is Avatar really not a big draw? The film made nearly 3bn in the box office which suggests there are plenty of people that like it out there. Do wonder though if the Pandora land has increased Animal Kingdoms popularity this year.
Regardless, a high quality land like Pandora with a couple of amazing attractions being in Disney Paris would be a huge draw and would help the Park regain the visitor numbers that have been dropping for the last couple of years. ( based on https://www.statista.com/statistics/639475/disneyland-paris-theme-park-visitor-numbers/ )
I would prefer something like the Beauty and the Beast area or something new just for Paris based on one of the many Disney stories that haven't been made anywhere else ( maybe a Robin Hood take on toy story mania, Wall E dark ride or a Big Hero 6 version of Soarin ).
Quote from: macca1476 on December 29, 2017, 12:10:12 PM
Heard it a few times, but is Avatar really not a big draw? The film made nearly 3bn in the box office which suggests there are plenty of people that like it out there.
Most of that however was the novelty of the 3D. Avatar was the first film to really use the new tech and the effects were impressive. Technically it was a great achievement. However the film itself is decent enough but nothing special imo and with 3D on the wane it remains to be seen whether people are at all interested in the franchise beyond the visuals.
Quote from: claire2281 on December 29, 2017, 02:11:19 PM
Quote from: macca1476 on December 29, 2017, 12:10:12 PM
Heard it a few times, but is Avatar really not a big draw? The film made nearly 3bn in the box office which suggests there are plenty of people that like it out there.
Most of that however was the novelty of the 3D. Avatar was the first film to really use the new tech and the effects were impressive. Technically it was a great achievement. However the film itself is decent enough but nothing special imo and with 3D on the wane it remains to be seen whether people are at all interested in the franchise beyond the visuals.
I have never seen it in 3D but LOVE the film , it is my husbands favourite , but that aside the theming of the place is immense and you truly feel that you are transported to somewhere else ..again Disney attention to detail is something else , But soaring on the back of a banshee that you can feel breath with the wind in your hair is just something special